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Author Topic: Ron Paul in Philadelphia conflicts with LPPA Convention on 4/22  (Read 1674 times)
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RSchwarz
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« on: April 06, 2012, 12:18:15 PM »

Since Ron Paul will be speaking on Independence Mall in Philadelphia on Sunday April 22, I think we should change the date of the LPPa state convention. Obviously the event in Philly will be infinite times more influential for the freedom movement over whatever the delegates in Wilkes Barre may decide to do.
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Eviker
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« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2012, 03:51:21 PM »

Absurd.  Even if such a change were remotely possible in terms of event management at this time, some washed-up Republican's efforts to sell his books should not trump the work of the Libertarian Party.  We'll still be here when he's expired or retired and passed his Republican torch to his right-wing spawn Rand.  The LP is a much better long-term investment in your "freedom movement" resources.  
« Last Edit: April 06, 2012, 03:57:56 PM by Eviker » Logged

Erik Viker
Chair, Libertarian Party of Snyder County
Secretary, Libertarian Party of Pennsylvania
P.O. Box 389
Selinsgrove, PA 17870
telephone 570-274-2040
VikerLP@gmail.com
vmays
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« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2012, 07:22:56 AM »

Eviker said:

"We'll still be here when he's expired or retired and passed his Republican torch to his right-wing spawn Rand"

I'm not so sure about that, Erik.  If outsiders visit this site and see all the bickering going on they will probably write us as kooks.  Without new members the party cannot survie and even if it does it will be nothing but a hollow shell.  I've been a libertarian longer than you've been alive (for that matter than the party has existed) but after 50 years as a Libertarian I'm considering leaving the pary and registering as an independent.  Not because my beliefs have changed substantially but, in my opinion, the LPPA has pretty much abandoned it's core beliefs.
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Eviker
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« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2012, 07:47:45 AM »

I'm considering leaving the pary and registering as an independent.  Not because my beliefs have changed substantially but, in my opinion, the LPPA has pretty much abandoned it's core beliefs.

Nah.  What you call bickering is almost always a spirited exchange of ideas. Anyone who can't handle the discussions here certainly couldn't handle participating in government.   I won’t accept every wacky idea of anyone who calls himself a “Libertarian” just because we share a political party.  I’ll “bicker” about those ideas but I stand ready to be convinced to change my mind if reason and insights demonstrate that I should.  Liars and tyrant-lovers get both barrels of my scorn.  That’s not bickering, that’s defending honor. 

If you leave, Vance, then you have done nothing to make the LPPA better in a difficult time.  Your choice.  I’d rather see you stick around and vote for trustworthy, dedicated Libertarian officers and reasonable platform positions and bylaws with which we may promote Libertarian principles in public policy.  If you leave, it only benefits the anarchists and word-twiddlers who want to distract us from the mission that brings our core beliefs to life.


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Erik Viker
Chair, Libertarian Party of Snyder County
Secretary, Libertarian Party of Pennsylvania
P.O. Box 389
Selinsgrove, PA 17870
telephone 570-274-2040
VikerLP@gmail.com
RSchwarz
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« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2012, 04:49:53 PM »

No less than 5000 people will be in Philadelphia to hear Ron Paul give a more libertarian speech than Bob Barr or Gary Johnson could hope to deliver in 10,000 lifetimes. That the LPPa gutted its platform last year is one of the most sickening things it could ever have done. Really, what is the LP other than Republican Lite?
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Eviker
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« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2012, 08:00:51 PM »

No less than 5000 people will be in Philadelphia to hear Ron Paul give a more libertarian speech than Bob Barr or Gary Johnson could hope to deliver in 10,000 lifetimes. That the LPPa gutted its platform last year is one of the most sickening things it could ever have done. Really, what is the LP other than Republican Lite?

Republican speeches do not promote Libertarian principles in public policy but they sure do lure libertarian-leaning voters into voting Republican, as the speeches are engineered to do.  If those 5,000 people turned around and joined the LP as a result, then I'd be impressed.  But they won't, because Saint Ron keeps them in the Republican fold like obedient sheep.  
  
You rely on the same old Paulite propaganda that as usual fails to refute observations that don't lovingly rub Ron Paul's bunions.   Ron Paul does not describe himself as a libertarian, even though anybody can call themselves a libertarian.  He is a fiscal conservative, which is the least any elected official can do when spending other people's money, but he is not a Libertarian Party candidate.  Ron Paul opposes several important Libertarian Party principles.  His version of state “rights” would allow state governments to decide to intrude on the family lives and medical lives of peaceful citizens, rather than support the Libertarian Party platform positions that don’t support government at any level to do that sort of intrusion. States do not have rights, people do.  And his immigration positions support government meddling in peaceful people’s private housing and employment arrangements, which isn’t Libertarian.  He signed the Personhood Pledge, a blatant promise to use government force to control women.  He endorsed for president a religious extremist of a political party that wants to cede government control to religious law.  If what appeals to you is Ron Paul saying libertarian things, then when the Republican who talks that way doesn't win the Republican nomination, you may put all that healthy eager zeal into helping to build the third-largest political party in the nation, in which almost EVERY member talks that way. Ron Paul is complicit in a system that he cannot change before his time is up. Ron Paul is not the future of liberty in America.  YOU are.

You perpetrate a red herring fallacy by sticking Barr and Johnson into this conversation.  See here to learn more about your error:   http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/red-herring.html

Bonus insight:  Barr = / = Johnson

If you need specific wording in a bureaucratic document in order to feel motivated to promote Libertarian principles, then you are not ready for government reform activism.  The most important platform any Libertarian can adopt is the code of personal conduct that person demonstrates in positions of responsibility. As an organization, we’ll never create a document that can appeal to every LP member.  A user-friendly, overview style of platform is best for introducing the LP to voters.  We can also create a series of more detailed position papers that are incorporated into the platform by reference can satisfy those who are desperate to tell others exactly what to believe.  A party platform is not a purity test.  There is no way to ensure any member behaves in accordance with whatever platform we adopt.  There is no way to ensure any member believes everything in whatever platform we adopt.  We cannot read members’ minds, or keep them under surveillance to guarantee they behave in adequately Libertarian ways at all times.  Do those who fear a “big tent” party plan to post guards at the tent flaps?  Of course not.   Anybody who leaves the LP because of the text of some bureaucratic document wasn’t all that serious about cooperating with the LP to promote citizen liberty and limited government.  
« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 10:54:59 AM by Eviker » Logged

Erik Viker
Chair, Libertarian Party of Snyder County
Secretary, Libertarian Party of Pennsylvania
P.O. Box 389
Selinsgrove, PA 17870
telephone 570-274-2040
VikerLP@gmail.com
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« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2012, 03:46:55 PM »

My 2 cents...... looking at the Nolan Chart (http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz), most of the voting public lives in the middle "Centrist" box.  If the LPPA is to be at all successful, we need to have a platform that is closer to the center.  Individual candidates can move from the center.  But as a party trying to get people elected, the fuzzy center is where we need to be. 

Political extremes never get elected and therefore are ineffective in reaching their goals.  (This is why Paulbots are ineffective in converting others into supporters for their guy or for other libertarian candidates.  I think they do more harm than good.)

Personally, I don't want/need RP supporters to build the LPPA.  If they will vote for our guy come November, great! But we don't need them to build the party.  We need the independent and liberty-minded R's and D's to come over. 

Having RP draw his minions away from the LPPA convention is a good thing. 
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Eviker
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« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2012, 04:36:38 PM »

Having RP draw his minions away from the LPPA convention is a good thing. 

I agree that the Paulite event in Philadelphia will increase the likelihood that the most serious Libertarian Party activists will be making decisions for the LPPA at our national convention.  And I’m fine with that. 
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Erik Viker
Chair, Libertarian Party of Snyder County
Secretary, Libertarian Party of Pennsylvania
P.O. Box 389
Selinsgrove, PA 17870
telephone 570-274-2040
VikerLP@gmail.com
Roy.Minet
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« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2012, 10:04:24 AM »

I agree that the current platform (as adopted at the 2011 convention) is weak and should be improved.  However, the platform it replaced was horrible, even though I agreed with 99.5% of it.  It was horrible because it drove more new LP prospects away than it attracted and it invited LP enemies to attack us.  It took far too many detailed, hard-nosed positions on specific things.

I do NOT agree that we should change our platform to fit the center block of the Nolan chart.  This would lose our identity and the whole reason for our existence.  The solution is to stick to a strong statement of more basic libertarian principles, but don't go out of the way to punch people in the nose about specific issues.  Libertarian principles are our greatest strength and most people actually find them attractive and even AGREE with them.  We need to focus on doing a better job of presenting and explaining these principles.  You can't start out by hitting most new people over the head with specific applications of our principles; we lose them.  We need to get them to buy into the principles first, and then bring them along gradually to the applications to specific issues.
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Eviker
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« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2012, 10:29:02 AM »

I do NOT agree that we should change our platform to fit the center block of the Nolan chart.  This would lose our identity and the whole reason for our existence.  The solution is to stick to a strong statement of more basic libertarian principles, but don't go out of the way to punch people in the nose about specific issues.  Libertarian principles are our greatest strength and most people actually find them attractive and even AGREE with them.

I agree with Roy here.  I offer a behaviorally-specific strategy below ("A user-friendly, overview style of platform is best for introducing the LP to voters.  We can also create a series of more detailed position papers that are incorporated into the platform by reference to satisfy those who are desperate to tell others exactly what to believe").  The Minutiae Men who enjoy twiddling every word of the platform to suit their personal preferences can sit on a committee to write these position papers, and those who enjoy that sort of detail would be free to read them and opine at will.  Meanwhile, the Libertarians who want to promote Libertarian principles in public policy will be running for elected office and supporting Libertarian campaigns for elected office. 

The LPPA platform should reflect the principles in the "above center" section of the Nolan Chart.  We're neither right nor left, we're straight up. 

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Erik Viker
Chair, Libertarian Party of Snyder County
Secretary, Libertarian Party of Pennsylvania
P.O. Box 389
Selinsgrove, PA 17870
telephone 570-274-2040
VikerLP@gmail.com
mark.d.crowley
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« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2012, 08:40:20 PM »

FYI, Ron Paul will be in Pittsburgh on Friday, April 20th at the University of Pittsburgh.

http://www.ronpaul2012.com/2012/04/13/ron-paul-at-university-of-pittsburgh-town-hall/
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Eviker
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« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2012, 03:17:10 PM »

Selling his books and getting those youngsters voting Republican. 

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Erik Viker
Chair, Libertarian Party of Snyder County
Secretary, Libertarian Party of Pennsylvania
P.O. Box 389
Selinsgrove, PA 17870
telephone 570-274-2040
VikerLP@gmail.com
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