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Author Topic: Libertarian Party of Pennsylvania 2010 candidates  (Read 2815 times)
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Mik
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« Reply #30 on: November 10, 2010, 08:55:07 AM »

Lysistrata is a play by Aristophanes in which the women of Athens, who have no political rights, withhold sex in order to pressure the men to end the Peloponnesian War. We withhold our votes, which are probably a lot less prized than sex is.

It seems already over half of the eligible voting population has adopted the practice of withholding votes. It is clearly not the votes that are withheld that matter nearly as much as the ones that are cast. If they can only get cast for D's and R's, then the system of stifling alternative ideas will remain in place.

It would appear that a better use of this technique would be to actually withhold sex from elected officials, particularly from professional sex workers, government interns, and page staff.

I don't know of anyone in the Tea Party or the Paul campaigns who think the system is just peachy. If they had any reply at all, it would be to ask, how continually running and losing badly at the state and federal level leads to changing the system.

I know a lot of people in the Tea Party and even some in the Paul campaign who think the system is fine, but just needs some fine tuning so the right people get put in place. In most cases, they think the only place for discourse is within the political party, and once a choice is made there, only that voice and the one from the other side should be what the electorate has to choose from. I don't believe that should be the case, and that an election should be about choosing from a range of ideas.

It seems to me the best way to bring alternative voices to the electoral process is to have candidates in the game. When people see that they can have choices without western civilization coming to an end, as is claimed by the shrill rhetoric in many election seasons, then pressure to change things will mount.

If the system is changed, it will be because people who [/i]won[/i] elections changed it, as Scwarzennegger has recently changed it in California.

This is true to the extent that laws are enacted trough the action of elected representatives in the legislative and executive branches of government. I do seem to recall someone going to great lengths to claim there are ways to change the political discourse and action though other means. That every candidate who qualified to be on the ballot for statewide office was removed this year made a big impression on a lot of people that I have talked to. That helps to build support for change in the general electorate. The actions also bolster our appeal in federal court. Within the Democratic Party it has coalesced support for election reform. If in fact the only way to change things is to have elected officials do it, then I think it would become even more imperative to run candidates for office.

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I also think that situation is not as dire as is being presented. We have made progress in the past five years. There is a bill for change that has been introduced and will be introduced again. There is a movement support for change of the electoral system working through at least one of the major parties, and by working behind the scenes with people, we may be able to help it gain momentum. We cannot do that by a confrontational approach and treating all supporters of other political parties as enemies.

Or by they support the lessers of two evils?
 

I'm not sure what this means. 

You think the general electorate is upset that the LP can't get on the ballot?


I think the general electorate is increasingly dissatisfied with the choices, or lack thereof, that they are finding. Based on my discussions with people, many find the ideas of the LP appealing and would like to have that be a viable choice. Unfortunately the system makes that not the case and ballot access is part of that problem.

None of that suggests that the LP gets the credit.
(and)
This seems to be missing the point. Brandon listed 198 ways to keep injustice in the public eye. I think his point (and mine and David Nolan's) is that we are so fixated on running for office that we are short-changing the other 197.

 
Remember that David Nolan ran for US Senate this year, and his recent article stressed the importance of Libertarian candidates working to be included in televised debates. Clearly running for office is a piece of the puzzle, and one that a political party is particularly well suited to do. It does not mean the other items need to be discounted, but some will be more appropriate to undertake than others, e.g. Lysistratic nonaction.

Just as the LP can work on ballot access issues, they do not have to do it alone, and I think the issue of credit is secondary, although others may disagree. Other organizations like VotePa, or the PA Ballot Access Coalition, or the League of Women Voters, or Democracy Rising, etc. may also work on reforming the ballot access laws. What those other organizations cannot do is run a slate of candidates for elected office like the LP can.

This doesn't mean the LP cannot work on some of the other 197 approaches, and certainly those other organizations could endorse candidates, but why not play to organizational strengths? Trying to put the LP on equal footing with VotePa as a non-partisan lobbying organization doesn't make any more sense than trying to make VotePa a partisan political party. Some organization are going to highlight different approaches, and I think that is a good way to go about it. I think Brandon's point was primarily that more needs to be done, and with that I agree. I don't know that it means we should put running candidates way back on the list of priorities. It may mean bringing forward some other priorities, though.
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Zobaczymy, wszystko jest możliwe.
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« Reply #31 on: November 10, 2010, 08:59:06 AM »

One wedge issue here is the allegations that valuable non-candidacy-related LPPA initiatives are not happening, when they actually are happening. 
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Erik Viker
Chair, Libertarian Party of Snyder County
Secretary, Libertarian Party of Pennsylvania
P.O. Box 389
Selinsgrove, PA 17870
telephone 570-274-2040
VikerLP@gmail.com
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« Reply #32 on: November 10, 2010, 02:32:19 PM »

One wedge issue here is the allegations that valuable non-candidacy-related LPPA initiatives are not happening, when they actually are happening. 

The wedge issue is your lying statements about allegations that have never been made. I never said any of these things were never happening, but only the focus has been too much on running candidates.

I hope we can get some less reactionary candidates who will not respond to criticism by lying about what the critics have said.
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vern
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« Reply #33 on: November 10, 2010, 02:57:36 PM »

The final results of the election were rather interesting actually.  I didn't really care what the Senate and Governor races resulted in, except to note that the Senate race won by 78,323 votes and the Governor by 353,988 votes.

I'm realizing how important it was to the Republicans to kick us off the ballot this year.  Had we maintained our rightful ballot status, we would easily have made the percentage target we were hoping for.  And with all the Tea Party silliness this year, we would have been the death knell of a Senate seat win for the Republicans.

I'd say the major parties are beyond ignoring us.
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« Reply #34 on: November 10, 2010, 03:10:53 PM »

Dan Sullivan, the record exists for anyone who cares enough to go read it, right here on this forum.  You can claim somebody lied, but claiming it doesn't make it so.

Perhaps you're angry because I didn't immediately trust you as a source of LPPA-related insights and strategy.  I didn't instantly accept your judgements without question, and you began to insult my quality as an LPPA candidate and activist.  I think it's all very silly, really, and I admit to contributing to the silliness.  But those who care enough about it can arrive at their own conclusions by reading various conversations posted on the forum since mid-October. 

I believe arguing about arguing is pointless.  I'd be glad to buy you a beer and talk about what we have in common and how our different perspectives can both inform ways to advance the cause of liberty in government.  I think I'm already doing, even with some success as you’d measure success, many of the things you think LPPA members should be doing. 
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Erik Viker
Chair, Libertarian Party of Snyder County
Secretary, Libertarian Party of Pennsylvania
P.O. Box 389
Selinsgrove, PA 17870
telephone 570-274-2040
VikerLP@gmail.com
Roy.Minet
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« Reply #35 on: November 10, 2010, 05:29:54 PM »

Coupla comments on this thread --

Personal attacks and vituperation do not seem to be productive forms of discourse to me (although I confess to having allowed myself to be goaded into that mode occasionally, so I'm certainly not claiming to be "holier than thou").

The subject of voting methodologies has been mentioned several times and it's a surprisingly interesting subject that is a lot "trickier" than most would think.  There are about a hundred or so different methodologies and variants that have been proposed and studied.  It has been recognized for more than two centuries that plurality is one of the worst; it's totally brain dead when no candidate receives a majority of the vote and a good decision is not at all assured.  (BTW, Instant Runoff Voting has some serious problems as well and is not one of the better methodologies.)  Two Frenchmen proposed alternatives around the time of the American Revolution (known as the "Borda" and "Condorcet" methodologies).  Over the years, scholars developed a set of "fairness axioms" that everyone though any "fair" voting methodology should satisfy.  Unfortunately, an American economist named Kenneth Arrow pissed in that punchbowl in 1951.  Arrow constructed a proof that showed that it is possible to devise voting methodologies which satisfy different SUBSETS of the fairness axioms, but it is IMPOSSIBLE for ANY one voting methodology to satisfy ALL of them.  While "fairness" is important, it would seem even more important to ask how to devise a methodology that makes the best decisions (both slippery concepts to define).  If anyone is interested in more information, email me at roy.minet@comcast.net and I will forward a provocative article, "Voting for Better Decisions" (includes some references to other articles and work as well).
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