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Author Topic: My Brilliant Plan for Decriminalizing Marajuana  (Read 658 times)
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klapton
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« on: March 04, 2008, 07:07:26 pm »

I know most Libertarians believe is decriminalizing most or all recreational drugs.  I'm not sure I agree.  Marajuana, however, while not being a very healthy habit, is relatively harmless to society.  I've NEVER heard of anyone ever dying from an overdose of pot.  Nor have I EVER heard of someone committing a violent crime driven by their "addiction" to weed.  The biggest negative I see is that it has a strong tendency to turn people into couch potatoes, hehe.

So, here's my plan.  I would decriminalize marajuana with the following stipulations:

1)  Minors are not allowed to purchase or use it, unless under the supervision of their parent or legal guardian.

2)  Driving under the influence of marjuana should be illegal.  This would require an on-the-spot test, like "breathalizers" for alcohol, that can accurate prove active intoxication.  While marajuana does not cause loss of muscle control like alcohol, it does slow response times, and impair judgement.  While it does not cause people to swerve all over the road, it can cause people to do dumb things like waiting at an intersection for a stop sign to turn green.

3)  Employers retain the right to require a "clean" work force.  For jobs where mind-power and sound judgement is required, it's not unreasonable for employers to expect their employees to be performing at their best.  For example, I'd rather not fly on an airline who hires stoners to be pilots.

4)  Lastly, and MOST importantly -- no one can get one thin dime from the government without a drug test.  No unemployment, no workman's comp, no disability (unless marajuana is prescribed by their physician) -- NADA.  Why?  Again, because the greatest societal negative of dope smoking is it's tendency to make people LAZY.

What do you all think?
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JohnKOTR
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« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2008, 08:04:49 pm »

I know most Libertarians believe is decriminalizing most or all recreational drugs.  I'm not sure I agree.  Marajuana, however, while not being a very healthy habit, is relatively harmless to society.  I've NEVER heard of anyone ever dying from an overdose of pot.  Nor have I EVER heard of someone committing a violent crime driven by their "addiction" to weed.  The biggest negative I see is that it has a strong tendency to turn people into couch potatoes, hehe.

In my opinion, it is any given person's right to be a couch potato if they want to be.



Quote
So, here's my plan.  I would decriminalize marajuana with the following stipulations:

1)  Minors are not allowed to purchase or use it, unless under the supervision of their parent or legal guardian.

Its not the government's job to watch people's kids and to enforce these kinds of rules. The parents are responsible to do this.


Quote
2)  Driving under the influence of marjuana should be illegal.  This would require an on-the-spot test, like "breathalizers" for alcohol, that can accurate prove active intoxication.  While marajuana does not cause loss of muscle control like alcohol, it does slow response times, and impair judgement.  While it does not cause people to swerve all over the road, it can cause people to do dumb things like waiting at an intersection for a stop sign to turn green.

I take a position like that of speed limits, stop signs, and traffic lights. Feel free to ignore the signs, lights, and to drive while intoxicated. If you cause an accident due to your recklessness, then you ought to be punished. There are a lot of people who drive while intoxicated and never have a problem, because they can handle it. I've never gotten into an accident because I was speeding. If and when I do get into an accident, I have insurance to pay for damages to one's automobile. If I hurt them, I have insurance for that. If I was speeding, the officer can cite me for it then, but if I am a responsible speeder who never causes trouble, why punish me? I like to go fast and I know my limits.


Quote
3)  Employers retain the right to require a "clean" work force.  For jobs where mind-power and sound judgement is required, it's not unreasonable for employers to expect their employees to be performing at their best.  For example, I'd rather not fly on an airline who hires stoners to be pilots.

A private business should have the right to hire and fire people at will. It is, after all, a private business. They should have the right to pay whatever they wish. Offer whatever benefits (or lackthereof) that they wish. If workers won't accept those conditions and the company suffers a shortage of employees, then the market will take care of that company. Now, of course, we do need an OSHA. The government's primary responsibility is to protect citizens from enemies, both foreign and domestic, and from fraud. If a company is creating a dangerous environment that people will be hurt or killed in, then they ought to be severely punished for it. Workers ought to have the right to expect a safe work environment, within reason.


Quote
4)  Lastly, and MOST importantly -- no one can get one thin dime from the government without a drug test.  No unemployment, no workman's comp, no disability (unless marajuana is prescribed by their physician) -- NADA.  Why?  Again, because the greatest societal negative of dope smoking is it's tendency to make people LAZY.

Unemployment is paid by the worker during periods of employment. The worker receives unemployment benefits based on what they've already paid into the system. In my opinon, the worker ought to be entitled to these benefits regardless of the results of any substance testing. It is their money, not the government's. Of course, I would scrap the unemployment insurance system.

Workman's compensation and disability are also other plans that workers pay for, usually in partnership with the company that they work for. If the company pays into the plan, they ought to have the right to require a clean drug test, but it ought to be left up to workers to save for rainy days.


Quote
What do you all think?

I think that you need to ponder a little more about this. What people do with their lives is their own business, as long as it does not have a direct affect on my business. Live and let live.

A lot of people, even many libertarians, are reluctant to legalize drugs. A lot of this stems from fear of what will happen in the aftermath of legalization. What is the worst that could happen? Are we going to have gang wars over drugs? Innocent people caught in the mix? Are we going to have drug fiends littering the streets? Are we going to see our kids using drugs at increasing rates? All of this is going on now, despite the government wasting billions of dollars a year in the so-called "drug war". Short of efforts to change people's minds and to pursuade kids not to use drugs, nothing the government has done has ever worked.
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klapton
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« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2008, 09:14:02 pm »

I know most Libertarians believe is decriminalizing most or all recreational drugs.  I'm not sure I agree.  Marajuana, however, while not being a very healthy habit, is relatively harmless to society.  I've NEVER heard of anyone ever dying from an overdose of pot.  Nor have I EVER heard of someone committing a violent crime driven by their "addiction" to weed.  The biggest negative I see is that it has a strong tendency to turn people into couch potatoes, hehe.

In my opinion, it is any given person's right to be a couch potato if they want to be.

Of course.  Just not a government subsidized couch potato (see point 4)
Quote

Quote
So, here's my plan.  I would decriminalize marajuana with the following stipulations:

1)  Minors are not allowed to purchase or use it, unless under the supervision of their parent or legal guardian.

Its not the government's job to watch people's kids and to enforce these kinds of rules. The parents are responsible to do this.
We actually agree here.  Thus kids couldn't buy the stuff or use it without their parent's permission.
Quote

Quote
2)  Driving under the influence of marjuana should be illegal.  This would require an on-the-spot test, like "breathalizers" for alcohol, that can accurate prove active intoxication.  While marajuana does not cause loss of muscle control like alcohol, it does slow response times, and impair judgement.  While it does not cause people to swerve all over the road, it can cause people to do dumb things like waiting at an intersection for a stop sign to turn green.

I take a position like that of speed limits, stop signs, and traffic lights. Feel free to ignore the signs, lights, and to drive while intoxicated. If you cause an accident due to your recklessness, then you ought to be punished. There are a lot of people who drive while intoxicated and never have a problem, because they can handle it. I've never gotten into an accident because I was speeding. If and when I do get into an accident, I have insurance to pay for damages to one's automobile. If I hurt them, I have insurance for that. If I was speeding, the officer can cite me for it then, but if I am a responsible speeder who never causes trouble, why punish me? I like to go fast and I know my limits.
I agree about speeding, but definitely NOT about DUI.  Too many people DIE from drunk drivers.  There is not enough insurance money in the world to adaquately compensate me if one of my loved ones is killed by someone else's stupidity.
Quote

Quote
3)  Employers retain the right to require a "clean" work force.  For jobs where mind-power and sound judgement is required, it's not unreasonable for employers to expect their employees to be performing at their best.  For example, I'd rather not fly on an airline who hires stoners to be pilots.

A private business should have the right to hire and fire people at will. It is, after all, a private business. They should have the right to pay whatever they wish. Offer whatever benefits (or lackthereof) that they wish. If workers won't accept those conditions and the company suffers a shortage of employees, then the market will take care of that company. Now, of course, we do need an OSHA. The government's primary responsibility is to protect citizens from enemies, both foreign and domestic, and from fraud. If a company is creating a dangerous environment that people will be hurt or killed in, then they ought to be severely punished for it. Workers ought to have the right to expect a safe work environment, within reason.


Quote
4)  Lastly, and MOST importantly -- no one can get one thin dime from the government without a drug test.  No unemployment, no workman's comp, no disability (unless marajuana is prescribed by their physician) -- NADA.  Why?  Again, because the greatest societal negative of dope smoking is it's tendency to make people LAZY.

Unemployment is paid by the worker during periods of employment. The worker receives unemployment benefits based on what they've already paid into the system. In my opinon, the worker ought to be entitled to these benefits regardless of the results of any substance testing. It is their money, not the government's. Of course, I would scrap the unemployment insurance system.

Workman's compensation and disability are also other plans that workers pay for, usually in partnership with the company that they work for. If the company pays into the plan, they ought to have the right to require a clean drug test, but it ought to be left up to workers to save for rainy days.
I would do away with pretty much all of these government mandated and subsidized methods of supporting lazy turds who don't want to work.  If my insurance premiums or tax dollars are helping to fund someone else's survival, it better be just that -- their SURVIVAL.  I refuse to fund someone's drug habit.
Quote

Quote
What do you all think?

I think that you need to ponder a little more about this. What people do with their lives is their own business, as long as it does not have a direct affect on my business. Live and let live.

A lot of people, even many libertarians, are reluctant to legalize drugs. A lot of this stems from fear of what will happen in the aftermath of legalization. What is the worst that could happen? Are we going to have gang wars over drugs? Innocent people caught in the mix? Are we going to have drug fiends littering the streets? Are we going to see our kids using drugs at increasing rates? All of this is going on now, despite the government wasting billions of dollars a year in the so-called "drug war". Short of efforts to change people's minds and to pursuade kids not to use drugs, nothing the government has done has ever worked.
/agree 100% on the "drug war".  It's a huge waste of time and money.

Here's another crazy idea...  The punishment for possession of any drug is to consume the entire amount on the spot.  For the casual user with a small amount, they just wasted some money and won't have their stuff for this weekend's party.  For the pusher of seriously dangerous drugs -- well, we know what would happen to them.  Problem solved.
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JACKSONDAGGER
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« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2008, 05:12:11 am »

 ITS PRIMARILY A MATTER OF HOW WE'VE MANAGED TO CRIMINALIZE THESE "RECREATIONAL SUBSTANCES". JURISDICTION IS THE CRUCIAL ELEMENT. CURRENT DRUG LAW IS MANDATED BY AND IN MANY INSTANCES EXECUTED EXCLUSIVELY BY FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. ONE OF THE PRINCIPAL ADVANTAGES OF FEDERALISM IS THAT A CULTURE WITH SIMILAR ATTITUDES TOWARDS JUSTICE NATIONALLY CAN MAKE THE BULK OF ITS LAWS REFLECT LOCAL PREFERENCES SINCE OPINIONS VARY WIDELY(ESP. CONTROVERSIAL AREAS LIKE "VICE"). THAT ADDITIONALLY THIS DIVERSITY IN LEGISLATION WILL HAVE THE EFFECT OF DISCOVERING/DEVELOPING OBJECTIVELY AND EMPIRICALLY WHAT THE BEST POLICIES ARE BY TRYING A VARIETY OF DIFFERENT STRATEGIES IN DIFFERENT PLACES. STATES/COMMUNITIES CAN LOOK TO OTHERS FOR IDEAS & INSPIRATION IN DEALING WITH ISSUES THEY MAY HAVE IN THEIR OWN NEIGHBORHOODS.THEN WITH SOME LEVEL OF SOVEREIGNTY DO WHAT IS BEST FOR THEM. IF DECRIMINALIZATION IS THE POLICY THAT WOULD HAVE THE EFFECT OF ALLEVIATING THE MOST ILLS ASSOCIATED WITH DRUGS IT WONT TAKE LONG TO CONVINCE RATIONAL PEOPLE IF ITS BY CLEAR EXAMPLE.(EVEN IF THE CLEAR MORAL & ETHICAL IMPLICATIONS OF OUR CURRENT POLICY CONTINUE TO ELUDE THEM.)  IN ADDITION TO THE PRAGMATISM  INHERENT IN THIS SYSTEM, I HAVE THIS LINGERING CONVICTION THAT IT MAY ALREADY BE THE LAW. I HAVE READ THE FEDERAL CONSTITUTION SEVERAL TIMES AND THOUGH I WOULD NOT FANCY MYSELF A CONSTITUTIONAL SCHOLAR, I AM A THINKING CITIZEN AND IT SEEMS OBVIOUS TO ME THAT IT IS FORMATTED TO DELEGATE ENUMERATED POWERS (FEW AND DEFINED) TO FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. THERE IS NO PROVISION, NO POWER  DELEGATED TO CONGRESS REGARDING THE SANCTION/PROHIBITION OF INTOXICATING PLANT MATTER EVEN BY ITS BROADEST DEFINITIONS-("COMMERCE,WELFARE"). THE PROHIBITION OF ALCOHOL MAKES EXCELLENT CASE LAW STUDY. WHY WOULD THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AMEND THE CONSTITUTION(A CONSIDERABLE TASK) TO ALLOW THE POWER TO PROHIBIT ALCOHOL IF BY "COMMERCE OR WELFARE" THEY HAD MEANT ANY OBJECT THAT TRAVELED BETWEEN STATES OR EFFECTED GENERAL WELFARE ORIGINALLY? WHY WOULD THE CONSTITUTION SPEND SUCH INK ON LIMITING GOVERNMENT TO SPECIFIED POWERS IN 99% OF THE DOCUMENT AND THEN AUTHORIZE IN TWO SHORT CLAUSES THE POWER TO PASS ANY LAW ON ANY OBJECT THAT PASSES BETWEEN STATES OR EFFECTS WELFARE(EFFECTIVELY EVERYTHING)? THE 9TH & 10TH AMENDMENT ALSO EXPAND ON THIS BY BOTH IMPLYING IN THE 9TH THAT WHERE THERE IS NO POWER THERE IS A RIGHT, AND IN THE 10TH BY STATING THAT THOSE POWERS NOT ENUMERATED BELONG TO THE STATES OR TO THE PEOPLE RESPECTIVELY. BEST CASE SCENARIO (OTHER CONSTITUTIONAL CHALLENGES NOTWITHSTANDING) IT IS STATE JURISDICTION. THE STATES WOULD HAVE DIFFERENT APPROACHES AND THE SUPERIOR IDEAS WOULD PREVAIL.THIS BRILLIANT PLAN IS OVER 200 YEARS OLD!                 
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klapton
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« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2008, 05:35:55 am »

While there is no law against caps lock, nor one that forces the use of paragraphs, I also cannot be forced to read an incomprehensible rant that makes my eyes hurt.
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djahn
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« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2008, 08:10:29 am »

Here is JACKSONDAGGER's post again with "sentence case" and paragraph breaks where I thought they should be.

David Jahn

Its primarily a matter of how we've managed to criminalize these "recreational substances". Jurisdiction is the crucial element.

Current drug law is mandated by and in many instances executed exclusively by federal government. One of the principal advantages of federalism is that a culture with similar attitudes towards justice nationally can make the bulk of its laws reflect local preferences since opinions vary widely (esp. Controversial areas like "vice"). That additionally this diversity in legislation will have the effect of discovering/developing objectively and empirically what the best policies are by trying a variety of different strategies in different places. States/communities can look to others for ideas & inspiration in dealing with issues they may have in their own neighborhoods then with some level of sovereignty do what is best for them.

If decriminalization is the policy that would have the effect of alleviating the most ills associated with drugs it wont take long to convince rational people if its by clear example.(even if the clear moral & ethical implications of our current policy continue to elude them.) 

In addition to the pragmatism inherent in this system, I have this lingering conviction that it may already be the law. I have read the federal constitution several times and though I would not fancy myself a constitutional scholar, I am a thinking citizen and it seems obvious to me that it is formatted to delegate enumerated powers (few and defined) to federal government. There is no provision, no power delegated to congress regarding the sanction/prohibition of intoxicating plant matter even by its broadest definitions-("commerce,welfare").

The prohibition of alcohol makes excellent case law study. Why would the federal government amend the constitution (a considerable task) to allow the power to prohibit alcohol if by "commerce or welfare" they had meant any object that traveled between states or effected general welfare originally? Why would the constitution spend such ink on limiting government to specified powers in 99% of the document and then authorize in two short clauses the power to pass any law on any object that passes between states or effects welfare (effectively everything)? The 9th & 10th amendment also expand on this by both implying in the 9th that where there is no power there is a right, and in the 10th by stating that those powers not enumerated belong to the states or to the people respectively. Best case scenario (other constitutional challenges notwithstanding) it is state jurisdiction. The states would have different approaches and the superior ideas would prevail. This brilliant plan is over 200 years old!
                 
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David Jahn
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« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2008, 03:54:56 pm »

http://www.rand.org/news/press.05/03.21.html

What isn't stated in this article that I believe would be listed in the full report is that if we spent around 10% of what we are currently spending on enforcement we could fund drug treatment plans that would actually be effective in reducing the dependancy on drugs. Not that that is a good thing, but if the government really was trying to win the war on drugs it would not continue to fund an inneffective and unnecessary federal bureaucracy that has proven its inability to control the issue that they are being paid to control. If the government wanted to "control" this "problem" it would erdicate this ridiculous enforcement and begin to treat the citizens of this country for the perceived problem that exists.
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