Come on, seriously.  We know al-Qaeda did this, and yes AQ has many links to Pakistan.  Weak responses to events such as the USS Cole, the African Embassy bombings, etc led to many of the events that occurred on 9/11.  The terrorist organization set out to murder US citizens as well as foreign nations and subsequently attack our our economics.   The symbolic nature of the towers was key for them as well.   Was the response by the government horrible?  Yes.  Much of that has to do with information walls being erected and having to cut through enormous amounts of beaurocratic (my spelling is probably off and I'm not sure how to use spell checker on this site) interworkings had to be weaved through.  The result was a sickeningly slow response.  We saw this in Katrina's wake as well.  Osama bin Laden financed the operation, KSM did most of the planning.  They are unrepentant and have continually advocated attacks in the future.  Their targeting of buildings is nothing knew.  See also the towers in Saudi Arabia, Africa, etc.  They had experience on these targets.  We never took the threats seriously.  Training of course was provided to many organizations to respond to hijackings, but as we all know, simulated experiments and real world events are much, much different.  The AQ, harsh left wing organizations that are sympathetic to their cause (yes, they are left wing as they seek a government that is authoritative and all controlling, stifling and crushing all freedoms for the people) and the like are in an ideological battle against human freedom in general.  There was no controlled explosion.  Our government, for as many flaws as it has, did not do this to us, radical terrorist authoritarian murders did this.  I don't doubt the government played damange control in some aspects in the 9/11 Commission, but the main facts are the facts.  I know some people have an extremely diffcult time trying to really grasp that true evil is out there and such a horrible act could be committed, but unfortunately that is the way the world is.  People who truly believe things like it was a missle hitting the Pentagon are simply disconnected from reality.  I know that sounds harsh and take it for what it is.  Are there some conspiracies out there?  Sure, I think.  However, this whole Loose Change idea is simply mind numbing insanity.

David,

I'm not going to tell you we did not screw the pooch in the middle East, but all the bad press is not our fault. Our public relations started going down the toilet in that region after the 7 days war. Abdul Nasser claimed that U.S. Carrier based planes defeated Egypt and not the Israelis. It saved face for Nasser and since then everything that goes wrong in their petty dictatorships has been blamed on the U.S./CIA .

The Hijackers names were in the News papers, they were Saudis and Egyptians. Finding the names is pretty easy.

So if tower 7 was exploded and not collateral damage, why no discussion of bombs, incompetence or cover up? If it's a cover up why? The only answer the conspiracy folks come up with is that it was our government.

Yes I believe that 9/11 is a conspiracy by islamic militants, but usually in the tinfoil hat crowd conspiracy is a word reserved for the U.S. government or the business men that "really" run the country. As for making the Jersey girls happy, Libertarian ideals won't triumph.

So does this discussion advance the Libertarian cause or hurt it? In the short term if you are right or wrong you are made to look like a nut. A majority of people who vote do not want to think that the government blew up the towers, they may not know the exact details but Islamic militants are acceptable.

Although Libertarians stress individual freedoms, they support individuals cooperating together in business and industry. A strong point of the party is decrease in government intervention in the market. This would be considered pro business.

In the U.S., the government is of course the people, or so they say. When you blame the government for 9/11 or any number of other conspiracies, you are of course not blaming "the people". You are blaming George Bush and his friends in big business; beware of the military industrial complex. If big business is to blame people will vote for more regulation not less, no one will believe that George Bush is the lone gun man. If you are right David then nobody will vote Libertarian ever. People will vote for Big government of the people to protect them from the evil free market people.

Regards,
Samantha

This is the article I mentioned I have in mind for a future LibPENN.  The findings of my poll were interesting.  Where do i stand?  No conspiracy, just incompetence.  I have seen all sides, all videos.  I am with Dr. Paul on this.


Enjoy.


Conspiracies?  What conspiracies?  by BDively

I like to know what is in people’s minds.  What makes them tick, how they analysis thought.  This is something I become obsessed with; especially when it comes to wanting to know what people think, especially Libertarians, whom I respect and revere.  This led me to wanting to know what Libertarians think about conspiracies.  Like others involved in politics, conspiracies are everywhere and some are very persuasive based on what we read everyday and see on the internet. 

I kept asking myself, do most Libertarians feel September 11th was an inside job, a missile hit the pentagon and feel a deal was made with our southern and northern borders to create the NAU (North American Union).  Or, is this a simple case of a loud, vocal minority?  I had to find out.

At the 2008 LPPA State Convention I decided to do an unscientific poll to find out.     

The poll was my first, so I took some time and thought it over.  I would scatter the questions so there was no pattern that the “subject” would see.  I would tell each “subject” that I would give them the results only if they turned in their answers.  (I gave each subject a “receipt” that would tell me they turned it in) 

Below are the results of my poll.  I had many people suggest I publish them because the results are very interesting.  At the end I conclude with some thoughts.

Question One:  9.11 was an inside job, likely the power brokers and government were involved.

   50 Subjects – 10% said True, 64% said False, 26% said not sure

Question Two:  On 9.11, the Pentagon was hit by a missile, not at plane.

   51 Subjects – 14% said True, 63% said False, 24% said not sure

Question Three:  Our government knew 9-11 was going to happen and let it happen.

   49 Subjects – 24% said True, 43% said False, 33% said not sure

Question Four:  There is a deal with Mexico, Canada and the US Gov’t to form the NAU.

   48 Subjects – 31% said True, 21% said False, 48% said not sure

Question Five:  The income tax is unconstitutional.

   49 Subjects – 57% said True, 24% said False, 18% said not sure

Question Six:  The 16th Amendment was not ratified by the 50 States.

   47 Subjects – 51% said True, 6% said False, 43% said not sure

Question Seven:  On 9.11, it was a missile and not a plane that fell in western PA.

   51 Subjects – 6% said True, 73% said False, 22% said not sure

Question Eight:  Talking about conspiracies does more harm than good for the LP.

   50 Subjects – 56% said True, 14% said False, 30% said not sure

Question Nine: How many years have you been in the Libertarian Party?   14.4 Years in LP

My un-licensed analysis is that few Libertarians believe most conspiracies are credible; though many are agnostic about them and leave the door open for the possibility.  Taking questions 1 & 2 alone, 10% and 14% of the 50 subjects is only 5 and 7 subjects respectfully, it’s a small number.  When I assessed the age of those that were in line of conspiracy believers, they were in their 20’s.  If just half were in their 20’s, 3 or 4 out of 50 is mere 6 to 7 percent.  These young people were Ron Paul Revolutionaries, too, which attracted the young.


When I moved to questions on the 16th Amendment (Question Six) and the income tax being unconstitutional (Question 5) the numbers go up to 51% and 57%.  Are these conspiracies or do Libertarians know something the general public does not?  Many of men and women have spent time in jail to challenge these questions in court.  Only 6% and 24% stated that there was no conspiracy here.  Amazing.   

To those that took my poll, thank you very much.  I can again sleep and move on to my next poll, possibly on the direction of the party.     

Subsequently, at the LP Convention in Denver (and I’ll admit here I was consuming adult beverages at the time) I came across another Libertarian that was doing a survey on the relationship between those that wear reading glasses and their intelligence.  I asked him why he was doing it, was he a scientist? He said no, I’m a lawyer but “I just had to find out.”   
 

So if what you say is true, why would I vote Libertarian? Wouldn't I be taking the exercised power out of the hands of the puppets and giving it right to the string pullers? Would I not want to have powerful but good people in government to protect us from the evil people in our country?

I apologize David, I did not mean to attack you. I was lumping you in with people who I do find suspect.

My own questions do not arise beyond general distrust of government. I think many communities in the government have a cult of secrecy even about non sensitive materials, the concept of "need to know". I just am hesitant to jump to any conclusions based on what I do not know.

If not Islamic militants or our big bad shadow government then who is responsible? If it is the big bad shadow government then we are all wasting out time here in the Libertarian party. Political parties are for reformers, shadow governments require revolutionaries to deal with them.

Samantha

One airplane did go down in western PA, How was it handled?

If you simply want to know what brought 9/11 about in a chronological order, I think I have some insight on that. This is information I have pieced together from some briefings I have had from people that lived in that region and some personal experience of working in Afghanistan for 4 1/2 months.

In the Soviet/Afghan conflict the US supported the Afghan freedom fighters. At least long enough to give them the stinger missiles used to shoot down our helicopters. (note that the US pulled out early in the conflict)

During this war, the Afghani's sent their children to the mountains of Pakistan to escape the killing. Along the Pak border were schools built to teach these children. I believe they were called Pashtu schools. The schools were funded by Saudi Arabia. They taught an extreme version of islam to these children. These children would return to Afghanistan after the war to reunite the country and get rid of the warlords. They called themselves the Taliban.

At first, the US government was supportive of the Taliban. They, along with the British, sent funding and other "resources" to the Taliban to help them bring order to the chaos in that region. Unfortunately for American politics the Taliban took this support to a city in Afghanistan and wiped out most of the population for religious differences. When this happened the US decided to cut support. I believe at this time the British did as well. The only people that still supported the Taliban with money was Saudi Arabia.

At the start of the 90's another dictator that we installed in the middle east began to act up. Saddam Hussein was making movements that showed he was ready to invade his neighbors sovereign land. Saudi Arabia became concerned about this and pleaded for us to protect them. I am not certain that they were ever truly in danger, but Hussein was not necessarily predictable. The US put a condition on their aiding of the Saudi's, they had to stop sending the Taliban money.

This upset the Saudi's. They went to the Taliban and advised their leaders that the US was forcing them to quit supporting the Taliban. The Taliban had already seen all their funding around the world dry up. Now their brothers were abandoning them because the US said no more. As far as they were concerned the only choice they had to get their funding back was to get the US, and other western allies, to stop interfering with the flow of the money. How do you fight a war against the strongest nation in the world, when you are one of the weakest? I think we have the examples of that.

I am certainly not condoning what they did. I understand why they did it, but I still find their actions reprehensable. It should be recognized that the people who dislike us are not in the majority. The problem is that the way US policy is we disarm the majority who are law abiding citizens of a nation and that only leaves the terrorists and criminals with weapons. The good people cannot even defend their own homes.

Curiosity and questions are a good thing, but when they congeal into conspiracy theories is when I worry. Dealing with people on message boards is amazing. I think Libertarians tend to be overly susceptible to conspiracy theories. There are a seeming large number of libertarian minded people who think Bob Barr is a Republican plot to end the Libertarian Party forever. Being new to the Party, I'm trying to grasp this tendency to build everything into a conspiracy?

Peace and Love,
Samantha

My position is not from Hannity and Limbaugh, though I will admit I like some of the things they have to say.   My position is from history.  We had seen terrorist attacks overseas directed at our embassies, vessels, etc.  I can appreciate your position that we have embassies with many nations, but these acts have become increasing brazen and more sinister in nature.  Honestly, I know our embassy in Iraq is extremely bloated and should not remain so as we can reach and equitable solution at the Iraqis direction after we make sure they their security forces can protect their own citizens.  A large part of the problem with the Taliban in particular is that after the Soviet invasion and after the proxy war had been over, the US and other turned their backs on the nation, ignoring the Afghan people and letting them be overrun by thugs.  I do tend to link left-wing and authoritarian into the same group as the main tenet of their position is consolidating power into the government.  I do not think the government tells the truth about evertyhing, I readily admit that, and I think every citizen in this nation understands that are many things the government does not disclose to its citizens.  However, al Qaeda and their affiliates (like Abu Saayaf) have openly targeted free societies with their ideology.  The difference between the Soviet threat and the radical Islamic threat is that the terrorist organizations simply do not operate under a single flag, nor do they wear uniforms and that is a huge and  problematic difference.  When al Qaeda had affiliates being caputred for attempting to organize an attack against the Irish, with their historic and storied non-interventionist policies, I think that shows something about their nature.  I do not believe their was a controlled explosion, nor do I believe that if there was a posibility that al Qaeda would have done that and much, much more.  I think they had taken lessons from the Soviet experience that economic warfare is what ulitmately destroyed the Soviets (and subsequently gave the people of Eastern Europe new found freedoms) and that is why they had targed the WTC on two occasions, they sought those highly simbolic symbols of American economic strength and Pentagon and White House for the military and leadership of our nation.  They also serve as great symobols of freedom.  Another thing that makes al Qaeda and extremism so much different is the religious ties that are involved.  These are noted pretty well, so I won't elaborate.  A great majority of the "truther" movement believes the government is who was behind 9/11 and completely turns a blind eye to just how dangerous an enemy we are fighting and that is tremendously dangerous and irresponsible.  I have never once heard or seen a truther go out and blast the terrorists behind the acts, only the government.   Of course the government is ineffecient, but recognizing security threats is essential.