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Author Topic: Drilling for Oil and Refining Capacity  (Read 1887 times)
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JohnKOTR
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« Reply #30 on: June 27, 2008, 04:36:37 pm »

Solar and wind get us what, 3% of our energy?  With hundreds of billions invested and massive land use we might, might get to 10-15%.  What if it's cloudy, what if not wind?  Our solution is right under our noses with Nuclear.  There is a reason the French get over 75% from Nuclear and have so much they sell overage to Spain.  China and India are building nuclear.  They will have cheap labor and cheap power in 5 years. 

I think that it was somewhere around 5,000 nuclear power plants that we'd need to have in order cut our petroleum use in half. It was also stated that at that rate, we'd deplete the availability of fissible material to the point that we'd be stuck in the same situation (or worse) that we're in now. Nuclear is not a long-term solution.

The American southwest gets a lot of direct sunlight with appx. 90 percent sunny days. I've heard estimates that in order to supply all of our energy needs, with current solar technology, we'd have to cover an area the size of the State of California in order to do it. Of course, this is entirely unnecessary. We can supplement with nuclear, clean-coal, natural gas, geothermal, wind, and wave.
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foobar
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« Reply #31 on: June 28, 2008, 01:31:08 pm »

I think the issue with solar's low output is that the solar cell itself is only 12% efficient, meaning that out of all of the Sun's energy that hits the cells, the panel can only convert 12% of that to electricity. So once solar's efficiency gets better, we can begin deploying them into the southwestern areas.

Wind has improved dramatically. When most people think of wind, they think of the big 3 bladed ones. Those are going away eventually. We've developed vertical axis wind turbines that goes into the 50% efficiency range which is close to the max. amount (59%, see Betz's Law). The only problem is that vertical axis windmills need to be maintained more often as they undergo more stress.

Nuclear is nice right now, but in 10 years, all of that demand & inflation will shoot the price of uranium sky high While it seems attractive now, it's not so much in the future. Plus, nuclear plants survive on government funding (lots of subsides), so more nuke plants would just add to more short-term spending.
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djahn
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« Reply #32 on: June 28, 2008, 02:06:17 pm »

Foobar,

These are all great points.  You've obviously read a bit on the topic.  Can you provide any links for additional reading for some us less knowledgeable types?

David Jahn

I think the issue with solar's low output is that the solar cell itself is only 12% efficient, meaning that out of all of the Sun's energy that hits the cells, the panel can only convert 12% of that to electricity. So once solar's efficiency gets better, we can begin deploying them into the southwestern areas.

Wind has improved dramatically. When most people think of wind, they think of the big 3 bladed ones. Those are going away eventually. We've developed vertical axis wind turbines that goes into the 50% efficiency range which is close to the max. amount (59%, see Betz's Law). The only problem is that vertical axis windmills need to be maintained more often as they undergo more stress.

Nuclear is nice right now, but in 10 years, all of that demand & inflation will shoot the price of uranium sky high While it seems attractive now, it's not so much in the future. Plus, nuclear plants survive on government funding (lots of subsides), so more nuke plants would just add to more short-term spending.
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David Jahn
mark.d.crowley
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« Reply #33 on: June 29, 2008, 12:02:24 am »

Nuclear is nice right now, but in 10 years, all of that demand & inflation will shoot the price of uranium sky high While it seems attractive now, it's not so much in the future. Plus, nuclear plants survive on government funding (lots of subsides), so more nuke plants would just add to more short-term spending.

This isn't the whole story, nor is it totally accurate.  (20 years ago I worked for Westinghouse and I follow that industry and would even consider going back there. Westinghouse, now part of Toshiba, is embarking on a hiring frenzy to staff up for a large demand for plants.  They don't build them, but they do design and supply many critical components. They are well-aware of the price of things and the likely future price of things.)

First, the cost of nuclear-generated electric power is largely insensitive to the uranium price.  Uranium can triple in price and the cost of nuclear power to the end consumer won't triple.  The biggest part of the cost is the cost of the plant itself. I'm not sure what a plant would cost now, but $1 billion to $5 billion would be a guess. 

Let's consider the uranium. A typical nuke plant might have 230,000 pounds of uranium oxide in its core.  At $100/lb for the uranium, let's say that's $23 million. (Last I heard the price was something like $120/lb, but stick to $100/lb to make the numbers easier.) That 230,000 pounds is replaced in stages, but it will all be cycled out in three 18-month refuel periods.  On an annual basis, that's about $5 million worth of uranium per year.  Let's say I'm off my a factor of 10 and it's $50 million per year.  That's a lot, but it's still a fraction of the depreciation on a $5 billion total.

Second, yes there are some subsidies, but there are extremely high regulatory costs. Yes, there were limits to what a utility can be sued for (I'm not sure of the limit today), but environmental lawsuits were the other side of the coin.  I can't say it's a wash, but government intruded to provide safety, to provide public confidence, to provide a viable business, etc. etc. etc.  It seemed like every time it intruded, it had to intrude again to adjust for its last intrusion.  I can't believe that those intrusions led to a freer market in energy or to cheaper energy costs.

Mark
« Last Edit: June 29, 2008, 11:32:51 am by mark.d.crowley » Logged
caomhin10p
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« Reply #34 on: July 01, 2008, 01:03:48 am »

I'm all for all option, especially nuclear, I think it is essential to our nation's future, as is natural gas, oil, solar, wind, hydrogen, etc.   Regional solutions are the much better option though, but I think we have reached a point where the "not in my back yard" mentality are destroying this nation with the following respect.  We all KNOW we need more oil and natural gas in the short run as we move forward, but even with electric lines people protest their creation, people protest drilling, they've protested putting windmills offshore because it "devalues the scenery" and sadly, this is in party because of small, but extremely vocal minority.  It seems as though the majority will of the nation is being ignored and is starting to cripple the nation as we move to more and more P.C. standard operation, are affraid to offend or anger some people, while ignoring the will of the people and the market.  So I guess my question is, how do we really move past this?  How do we go out and convince people to drop this mentality or face the devestating after effects?
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Ron Goodman
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« Reply #35 on: October 10, 2008, 11:46:45 pm »

There is also a huge movement toward conservation in the commercial and residential construction industry.

In the book "Unstoppable Global Warming....Every 1,500 years" they had a quote that the greatest invention in the last 100 years was insulation.

ASHRAE just increased the minimum required insulation in commercial buildings from an R-15 to R-20.

There are many states following Massachusetts lead in requiring the use of Air & Vapor Barriers in commercial buildings.  The U.S. DOE estimates that up to 40% of a buildings energy costs are due to air infiltration.

 
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