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Author Topic: How Can I Be A Libertarian If...  (Read 1314 times)
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Tck13
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« on: March 23, 2008, 11:36:08 pm »

I'm trying on the Libertarian Philosophy and wondering what it's about.  It sounds like a good fit as I agree with a lot of what Libertarianism talks about but not sure how true Libertarianism would work today or how to move in the direction of less social AND financial encroachment by Government.

Quote
Libertarianism is a collection of political philosophies possessing the common themes of individual liberty. Libertarianism's ideals, although often varied in detail, typically center on policies in favor of extensive personal liberties, rejecting compulsory socialism and communism in favor of individual ownership and control or voluntary collectivism, promoting personal responsibility and private charity and opposing welfare statism, and advocating either limiting or entirely eliminating the power and scope of the state in order to maximize individual liberty.
  Link to Wiki...

I favor small government with less control over my social life AND financial life.  Hence Libertarian (in the true definition of the word - probably not today's Libertarian party?).

Granted, it's not going to happen any time soon, but what would happen if certain philisophically Liberal and Conservative programs were eliminated?

What would happen if the government didn't have any control over:

*The Post Office - this one's easy...

*Unemployment Compensation - What would happen when we lose our jobs and didn't have the money to pay bills?

*Abortion fully legal?

*Legal drug use

*Medicare / Medicaid

*Social Security

*No government involvement in healthcare

*Environmental concerns

*Weapons
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johngalinac
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« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2008, 08:00:44 am »

Not sure why you think that the Libertarian Party is not in favor of less government and getting the government out of our lives. That is what this party is about.

The Post Office - I rarely use them. I would get less junk mail. Win - Win if they are gone for me.

Unemployment Compensation - With all the money we are not paying in taxes we could invest in taking care of ourselves and taking personal responsibility for our own well being. Why is it that when you are not employed you feel that there is some requirement for compensation? We could have our own unemployment insurance if we so chose to.

Abortion fully legal/Legal drug use - Not sure why you picked this one out of the hat of laws that wouldn't even be considered in a Libertarian society. There would be no laws making abortion illegal. Just like a great many personal decisons would not be illegal. As long as exercising your freedoms don't take freedoms from another individual all should be well in the world. Tobacco use would even be decriminalized.

Medicare/Medicaid - Don't need them.

Social Security - Don't need it. Invest in yourself with all that tax money you aren't spending. Unless of course you feel the government does a better job planning your retirement than you can.

No government involvement in healthcare - This could have been dscussed with medicare/medicaid. They do such a horrible job with the few plans they do control, why would we give them anymore?

Environmental concerns - What environmental concerns? Our government is the number 1 polluter in this country. Reducing them in size will do nothing but help the environment.

Weapons - Again, if you aren't imposing on anyone else's freedom/liberty... You should be able to own guns without registration and monitoring.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2008, 11:47:35 am by johngalinac » Logged

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bdively
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« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2008, 08:02:35 pm »

Libertarianism mean individual liberty and personal responsibility.  Government is force, liberty is persuation.  You are entitled to a "right" only if that right does not interfer with someone else's rights.

An example is guns.  By me owning and keeping guns on my property does no harm to you or infringe your rights.  So you have a right to guns to protect yourself and your family.

You do not have right to free or subsidized healthcare because by you gaining free or subsidized healthcare from the government, you have taken (stolen actually) my right to use my money the way i see fit.

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Liberty for all,

Barry
Tck13
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« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2008, 09:45:50 pm »

Not sure why you think that the Libertarian Party is not in favor of less government and getting the government out of our lives. That is what this party is about.

The Post Office - I rarely use them. I would get less junk mail. Win - Win if they are gone for me.

Unemployment Compensation - With all the money we are not paying in taxes we could invest in taking care of ourselves and taking personal responsibility for our own well being. Why is it that when you are not employed you feel that there is some requirement for compensation? We could have our own unemployment insurance if we so chose to.

Abortion fully legal/Legal drug use - Not sure why you picked this one out of the hat of laws that wouldn't even be considered in a Libertarian society. There would be no laws making abortion illegal. Just like a great many personal decisons would not be illegal. As long as exercising your freedoms don't take freedoms from another individual all should be well in the world. Tobacco use would even be decriminalized.

Medicare/Medicaid - Don't need them.

Social Security - Don't need it. Invest in yourself with all that tax money you aren't spending. Unless of course you feel the government does a better job planning your retirement than you can.

No government involvement in healthcare - This could have been dscussed with medicare/medicaid. They do such a horrible job with the few plans they do control, why would we give them anymore?

Environmental concerns - What environmental concerns? Our government is the number 1 polluter in this country. Reducing them in size will do nothing but help the environment.

Weapons - Again, if you aren't imposing on anyone else's freedom/liberty... You should be able to own guns without registration and monitoring.

All fine answers of course but how to implement them?  They seem VERY far from the current reality and some drastic changes need to be made to achieve them.

I'm interested in the small steps that would have to take place to get away from the things I mentioned in my first post.  How can Libertarians promote their points of view without sounding like extremists?  Libertarians aren't even on the map currently in any elections that I know of and people don't really talk about them in any political discussions.  How does the party become relevant?  Ralph Nader seems more relevant and is more talked about in this election.

Ron Paul seemed to be closer to Libertarianism (from what I've heard and what little I've read) but he seemed very Conservative to me. 
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Mik
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« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2008, 11:27:12 pm »

If you have a dogma that you are trying to promote, and some in the LP do, then it can appear to be very remote from the current situation (and sometimes from reality in general). It also makes it possible to classify someone as a "bad" Libertarian or find heretics within the Party that must be purged. I think it's one of the reasons anarcho-capitalists and objectivists don't get along so well.

If you look at it more as a process, a way of life if you will, it becomes easier to see the big picture. It begins with the recognition that the legitimate role of government is, as Thomas Jefferson said, to secure the rights of the individual. The idea is to maximize individual Liberty and minimize the scope of government.

This can mean different things in different situations. If a society is made up of largely self-governing individuals, then a very small or perhaps no government could allow for maximum Liberty. In most cases, the absence of government will lead to situations like Somalia where the strongest warlord makes the rules, which does not maximize individual Liberty.

In the United States, at the local level, ways to implement Libertarian ideals may be to work for a relaxation of zoning regulations to allow activities that do not interfere with the rights of others or place anyone in harms way against their will. In our Commonwealth, it could mean working to eliminate the forcible taking of money from individuals to fund politically supported projects (known as Community Revitalization Funds). At the national level, it could mean working to remove federal government mandates on education.

There are a lot of small steps that can be taken to promote Libertarian ideas and move the government and society in a libertarian direction. The reason there are so many steps that can be taken is because there is such a long way to go. If all we talk about is the end point, a point on which few people will likely agree, then we may sound like extremist flakes.

Focusing on issues of concern in communities and recognizing achievable objectives are important if the LP is going to become a major force in American politics. Helping to organize opposition to the things like the federal REAL ID Act of 2005 and the National Animal Identification System will do more to bolster the LP than expounding on about how all taxation is theft that results in slavery.

The two major parties are both taking us down a road toward more government authority. We need a credible alternative to work within the established political framework to counter that trend, regardless of how slanted the playing field is. If that does not work, the only choice remaining to limit government authority will be violent revolution, which no reasonable individual one wants to see happen.

We didn't get into the current situation overnight, and getting back to the fundamentals of American government will also take some time. You really don't have to look far to see someplace to begin. If nothing else, work toward election reform in PA and it may help us make inroads faster.

Mik Robertson

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JohnKOTR
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« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2008, 07:04:09 am »

I'm trying on the Libertarian Philosophy and wondering what it's about.  It sounds like a good fit as I agree with a lot of what Libertarianism talks about but not sure how true Libertarianism would work today or how to move in the direction of less social AND financial encroachment by Government.

Quote
Libertarianism is a collection of political philosophies possessing the common themes of individual liberty. Libertarianism's ideals, although often varied in detail, typically center on policies in favor of extensive personal liberties, rejecting compulsory socialism and communism in favor of individual ownership and control or voluntary collectivism, promoting personal responsibility and private charity and opposing welfare statism, and advocating either limiting or entirely eliminating the power and scope of the state in order to maximize individual liberty.
  Link to Wiki...

I favor small government with less control over my social life AND financial life.  Hence Libertarian (in the true definition of the word - probably not today's Libertarian party?).

Granted, it's not going to happen any time soon, but what would happen if certain philisophically Liberal and Conservative programs were eliminated?

What would happen if the government didn't have any control over:

*The Post Office - this one's easy...

Then private companies the offer similar services would be available if there was enough demand for such things.



Quote
*Unemployment Compensation - What would happen when we lose our jobs and didn't have the money to pay bills?

Then you'd have to obtain another source of income or living or perish.



Quote
*Abortion fully legal?

Nothing. I don't see anything changing for most of us.


Quote
*Legal drug use

Drug prices plummet, gangs and violence disappear almost overnight, what would be a multi-million/billion dollar industry goes legitimate and tax revenues increase. Terrorist organizations like the FARC collapse in a matter of weeks. Taxpayer expenses on the massive prison system decline dramatically. A significant number of people in law enforcement, corrections, and the judicial systems are dumped from government payrolls further reducing the tax burden for the average American.

Oh, and people are STILL using drugs anyway, just like they do now.


Quote
*Medicare / Medicaid

Private providers would compete to provide the best quality, lowest cost medical services to customers as humanly possible.


Quote
*Social Security

Would be eliminated, placing the burden of planning for rainy days on the average American rather than the state, causing Americans to become more responsible and those who do not to learn first hand what social Darwinism is all about.


Quote
*No government involvement in healthcare

See up two.


Quote
*Environmental concerns

The environment would go straight to Hell, but of course in my opinion maintaining a safe and clean environment is covered by protecting citizens from enemies both foreign and domestic.


Quote
*Weapons

Handguns, rifles, semi-automatic rifles should be completely deregulated.
Automatic weapons should be lightly regulated.
Explosives and weapons of mass destruction should be prohibited.
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johngalinac
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« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2008, 07:38:00 pm »

Explosives may not be completely outlawed. I want my fireworks  Grin
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Tck13
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« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2008, 06:41:16 pm »

I appreciate the responses so far.  Some steps seem a bit big and scary.  Quite large steps and I imagine it'd be hard for most people to digest.  The libertarian website has been helpful as well in answering questions about what the stances are of Libertarians.

What about the environment?  I don't think a free market is very conducive to environmental care.  Without regulation I imagine companies would really take advantage of polluting the environment to save money.

I haven't really found any view on the environment on the Libertarian website.

I forgot to add; how do I change my voter's registration?  I can't seem to find it on PA's website.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2008, 06:55:01 pm by Tck13 » Logged
djahn
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« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2008, 07:11:38 pm »

I appreciate the responses so far.  Some steps seem a bit big and scary.  Quite large steps and I imagine it'd be hard for most people to digest.  The libertarian website has been helpful as well in answering questions about what the stances are of Libertarians.

What about the environment?  I don't think a free market is very conducive to environmental care.  Without regulation I imagine companies would really take advantage of polluting the environment to save money.

I haven't really found any view on the environment on the Libertarian website.

Government regulations actually permit companies to pollute, and as long as the companies are polluting within their permitted levels, there is no legal recourse for those who are effected.  It is a property rights issue.  If a company pollutes my property, I should be able to sue for damages.  That doesn't happen unfortunately since our government issues them licenses to pollute.

Quote
I forgot to add; how do I change my voter's registration?  I can't seem to find it on PA's website.

You can usually pick up voter registration forms at post offices or libraries.  There is information on line at http://www.dos.state.pa.us/voting/cwp/view.asp?a=1192&q=442984

I hope that helps.

David Jahn
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David Jahn
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« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2008, 12:20:18 am »

For a view on the environment you may want to try this:

http://ecolibertarian.org/manifesto

This has alway been a bit of a weak spot for most Libertarians, because market forces do not address things like negative externalities that well. It is too simplistic to say if someone pollutes my property I should be able to sue them. Reserve Mining once tried the reverse of that idea and claimed all of the water in Lake Superior in fact belonged to them, therefore they should be able to dump as they please.

Mik Robertson
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« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2008, 06:48:52 am »


Private providers would compete to provide the best quality, lowest cost medical services to customers as humanly possible.


I think this is a vast oversimplification. While free markets would provide more choices to the consumer, there will still be the problems of people purchasing too little coverage for an unforeseen need or failing to purchase coverage at all and requiring health care services beyond their ability to pay.

The point of capitalism is to maximize profits, not provide the best product or service at the cheapest price, although this can be one way profits are maximized. Human health care does not fit as easily into a free-market capitalist system as do widgets, largely because of the moral issues involved.

In addition to the problems mentioned above, certain people may be uninsurable because of previous conditions, or there will be economic pressure to drop coverage if certain conditions arise. There is little economic incentive to provide $800,000 in cancer treatments if those final couple years of the person's life will only generate $8,000 in revenue for the insurance company. Genetic screening may render some uninsurable at all due to findings deemed to be unduly high risk.

Unless we can address these concerns, we are not addressing the issue of health care in the United States. I think what we need to emphasize is that a large part of those who fall through the cracks in a free market healthcare environment could be handled by private charity funded through voluntary donations.

It may be reasonable that remaining individuals not covered through private charity have some sort of government safety net, even if that means only providing pain relief in the final stages of one's life so a shred of human dignity can remain intact. The short-term goal is to get a system where people plan to avoid using government funded healthcare rather than the system we have now where people plan their lives around it.

Mik Robertson
« Last Edit: May 14, 2008, 11:16:31 pm by Mik » Logged
foobar
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« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2008, 09:41:31 pm »

I'll try my best, but I'm still gaining info about the libertarian party.
Quote
*The Post Office - this one's easy...
Less junk mail. Smiley Seriously, since I can pay practically any bill online and even get magazines through e-mail, there's really not much of a reason for the postal office to exist. However, if a service was still in demand, we would have competing businesses for the delivery for mail, just like we have FedEx and UPS for package delivery.
Quote
*Unemployment Compensation - What would happen when we lose our jobs and didn't have the money to pay bills?

In a libertarian world, this issue wouldn't be much of a concern because the much less government regulated free market would allow you to find a job quicker. Instead, we get these stupid special interest acts such as NAFTA which kills our jobs. But that's for another thread.

Anyway, a libertarian president would enact a consumption tax and get rid of the income tax. So how does this affect you when your unemployed? Well, you would naturally want to consume a lot less, so you would pay less in taxes. In addition, there are alternative options for income such as CDs, bonds, and even the stock market if you know how to play it well. If you can manage your money and show that you're a good worker, then I don't see the lack of unemployment insurance as a problem. The real issue here is that most Americans expect all of these handouts from the government and don't take any responsibility for what they spend, so as a result they get into these big debt holes where they're stuck in it.
Quote
*Abortion fully legal?
Mmm, depends on who you ask. I believe that an unborn child still has rights and abortion should only be used in special situations such as if it could harm the mother, the mother is still a child or young teen, the child is going to die, or if the child will live a very low quality of life. Even then, one can still put the child up for adoption.

On the other hand, it's not like every mother is going to get an abortion just because they don't want the child. In this case, I can see the libertarian viewpoint of just staying out of the messy picture period and not giving preference to one side or the other.
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*Legal drug use
A lot of people think that if we somehow make illegal drugs legal, then everyone is immediately going to run to the pharmacy, get high and this country will immediately fall apart. In reality, the drug laws have made the situation much worse because of the crimes that have followed the illegal trade. Take for example, the probation acts of the 1920s. When alcohol became illegal, what happened? Speakeasys popped up & the trade of alcohol was controlled by organized crime. If we legalize drugs, not only will the illegal trade begin to dissipate but the crime that comes with it will also eventually shrink down to almost nothing. That, ladies and gentlemen is how you win the War on Drugs. Smiley
Quote
*Medicare / Medicaid
Simply another government tool that doesn't work. Get rid of it.
Quote
*Social Security
Heh, I find it funny that despite the fact that my income is being deducted for Social Security, there's no guarantee that it'll be in my future. The system is managed so badly that it just needs to be cut out. Plus, the paltry income that comes with SS when you're 65 won't be enough to sustain you anyway. You still have to manage your money anyway, so cutting SS out will give you more money to be able to save up for retirement.
Quote
*No government involvement in healthcare
Same thing with Medicare/Medicaid, only this problem will be about 100x more massive. For some reason, Democrats think that by copying the models off of Canada and other European countries, we'll suddenly have happy joy and paradise. What they don't realize is that our population is a lot larger than most European countries and a lot of the medical infrastructure would have to be shut down to fund it, which would also create unemployment. In addition, your taxes will have to take a huge hike to fund it. Not a very good solution. Instead, we should keep it private, but encourage more businesses to offer healthcare coverage and get them to compete with each other. Competition is what will keep prices down.
Quote
*Environmental concerns
As stated above, the government is the biggest polluter because it allows corporations to pollute.  To use another example, if I stabbed or did some sort of harm to you, wouldn't you want to press charges against me? Wouldn't you want me to pay for the damages associated to your health? If these companies want to pollute, then they should pay for the costs of those affected by the pollution. That's also another method for pushing renewable, clean energy sources.
Quote
*Weapons
As stated in the Second Amendment, you have the right to own a weapon. If you use it responsibly, then there's no harm done. If you attack or kill someone for your own benefit, then you've not only broken the law, but you've violated someone else's civil liberties an you should be punished for doing so. Just as with drugs, if we put all these bans on weapons, then that will only fuel the illegal trade.

I hope I was able to answer some of your questions.
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tweber78
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« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2008, 10:25:28 am »

Libertarianism mean individual liberty and personal responsibility.  Government is force, liberty is persuation.  You are entitled to a "right" only if that right does not interfer with someone else's rights.

An example is guns.  By me owning and keeping guns on my property does no harm to you or infringe your rights.  So you have a right to guns to protect yourself and your family.

You do not have right to free or subsidized healthcare because by you gaining free or subsidized healthcare from the government, you have taken (stolen actually) my right to use my money the way i see fit.



That to me is the crux of the LP Idea.  It is as simple as, live your life anyway you see fit, as long as in doing so, you do not infringe upon the ability of someone else to do the same.  You should have the reasonable expectation to enjoy your life anyway you see fit. 
« Last Edit: May 05, 2008, 10:28:23 am by tweber78 » Logged
Mik
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« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2008, 11:19:24 pm »

Do not unto others as you would not have them do unto you.


DoH!

Some other folks used that one already!

Mik
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Samantha1965
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« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2008, 08:47:48 pm »


Private providers would compete to provide the best quality, lowest cost medical services to customers as humanly possible.


I think this is a vast oversimplification. While free markets would provide more choices to the consumer, there will still be the problems of people purchasing too little coverage for an unforeseen need or failing to purchase coverage at all and requiring health care services beyond their ability to pay.

The point of capitalism is to maximize profits, not provide the best product or service at the cheapest price, although this can be one way profits are maximized. Human health care does not fit as easily into a free-market capitalist system as do widgets, largely because of the moral issues involved.

Mik Robertson

Last year My daughter was diagnosed with cancer. I am in the lower middle class. Few savings and no health insurance (self employed). Even with out Government assistance Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, said they would foot the bill for treatment and that we should not worry. While my daughter was receiving a round of Chemo therapy at Lehigh Valley Hospital, my spouse badly sprained their ankle on a stair case. After filling out financial aid forms the hospital waved the fees from the emergency room.

Major Hospitals already take care of low income people in need. If you are worried about this, feel free to donate money to local hospitals to cover indigent patients. For a lot of people in medicine it is not just a business.

Peace and Love,
Samantha
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