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Author Topic: Oklahoma Vs. The Federal Government  (Read 205 times)
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caomhin10p
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« on: June 17, 2008, 11:42:31 pm »

Hey, I'm not sure how many have seen this as of yet, but Oklahoma took a bold step today and reminded the Federal Government of the 10th Amendment, essentially telling the government to mind its own business, and it passes...by a huge amount:
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=67229
I've got to agree with Oklahoma here.  They have every right to be able to implement and enforce their own laws if those laws aren't spelled out in the Constitution, as mandated by the 10th Amendment.  Thoughts anyone?
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djahn
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« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2008, 06:40:00 am »

I would like to see every state pass a similar resolution asap.  The next step is for states to join together to formulate plans to secede from the union that will be implemented unless the feds retreat and agree to be bound by the terms of the constitution.  We should be working to sell that notion in our state and others.  I believe it is the only path out of the mess we are in.

David Jahn
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David Jahn
Samantha1965
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Samantha_leigh1965
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2008, 08:26:47 am »

As I understand the state of Montana is waiting to see what happens with the 2nd amendment case in the Supreme court. Apparently it is written in their statehood documents that infringement on gun rights makes statehood nul and void.

Samantha
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Samantha1965
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Samantha_leigh1965
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2008, 09:47:47 am »

David,

The secession thing was tried once, all it accomplished was the death of 1 million + Americans and a more powerful federal government. Since you do not believe in the initiation of force how would you secede when the federal government says you can not and continues operations as usual. Fighting occurred in the War between the states when South Carolina wanted to take custody of federal property with in it's boarders.

If you do not stop paying taxes nor take custody of federal property, then secession is nothing more than a word. A quicker way to impede the expansion of the Government is if we all just stopped paying federal taxes. Of course we are all a little too fearful for that.

So what is the goal of the 10th amendment  resolution or articles of secession?

Samantha
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mark.d.crowley
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« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2008, 09:40:51 pm »

There are lots of things short of sucession that could be tried.  Let's consider a few examples on other topics.

** Reject REAL ID -- (This is one of my pet projects.)  If just a sizable minority of states would fully reject this national ID card, then that would put the brakes on it.

** Fight No Child Left Behind -- Imagine if a half-dozen states interpreted these regulations their way or simply ignored some of them.  So, worst case, the federal government suspends payments to those state. What if a few said "Fine, we'll educate our kids our way without your money."  I'd gladly teach a calculus course if that counted as my state income tax payment.

** Highway Funds -- Suppose several states ignored seat belt laws, alcohol content or some other federal mandate and the feds suspended some highway funds.  OK, then the states put toll booths up for non-registered vehicles coming into the state to make up for the lost revenue.  Again it gets interesting.

** IRS Audit/Raids -- I'm told that a county sherrif in PA can stop cold federal authorities from federal raids in his county.  (At lease in the pre PATRIOT Act days.) I could see some major jurisdictional roadblocks thrown up here.  Suppose all federal raids had to accompanied by state/local officials. 

** Recession/Depression -- If the federal goverment and the Fed push the country into a horrible financial disaster where citizens/businesses can't pay enough taxes and the response is just the creation of more worthless dollars, could the feds afford to occupy the entire nation?  In this case the states should have a clear opening to reassert themselves.

I would prefer the states continually challenge the federal government frequently.  This isn't succession, but it certainly isn't acceptance.  My point is that the states have lots of leverage possibilities. All we have to do is look.

Mark
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bdively
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« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2008, 10:41:48 pm »

Has anyone on here signed up for the Free State Project or gone to a "Porc Fest"?  I really thought that was going to take off, but I heard too many ppl felt if was too cold.
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Liberty for all,

Barry
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« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2008, 11:27:44 pm »

I was tempted to join the Free State Project, but ultimately, my family and my life is here in Pennsylvania. How could I leave?
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caomhin10p
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« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2008, 11:49:42 pm »

I'm sure you guys know I'm a Republican but with many libertarian values, someone who values Milton Friedman's work immensely and is big on personal responsibility, limited government, lower taxes, et. al.  I agree that states and local communities need to be able to have more control and less control must be given to the federal government.  I'm opposed to REAL ID as well.  I'm a huge fan of school vouchers and tax credits, I think that will be the best thing for children trapped in horrible school to be able to escape and the increase in competition will help the school system become more effecient.  Various learning styles can be adopted, etc.  Though I do believe there has to be some form of standards for the school systems, blackmailing states is not the way to achieve this.  Additionally, Teachers Unions and Administrators are usually roadblocks on the way to true reform.  Simply throwing the money at the problem is not going to fix things.  Highway Funds are another problem.  There is no reason for a 21 age drinking limit to be based on states not being given federal highway funds.  I know we've all heard the drinking age argument, but I do believe it should be dropped to age 18.  Voting, employment, military service, heck, even adult criminal charges are all attained at 18, it needs to become uniform and we really need to recognzie them fully as adults.  I'm not an advocate of the free state project, but I've heard of it.  Community activism and intellectual discussions of ideas are the best way to achieve real results across many communities, depriving vast amounts of areas of such intellectual discussions and political insight in order to consolidate into one concentrated place is not a good idea.  From my discussions with you all, I must say that this is on display here in PA's Libertarian Party.  While I do not agree with all of the stances of the official Party, the one thing I greatly appreciate and admire from everyone is their courtesy, open mindedness, and willingness to discuss difficult topics using statistics, facts, and personal experiences in a highly evolved manner.  I've always had interest in the LP and I'm glad that you all have taken the time to talk with me and tackle some important issues.  Believe me, I have a great deal of respect for all of you and the LP in general and our common belief in personal liberty, freedom, limited government, etc, in this efforts you will have my full support.
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