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Author Topic: The First Set of a Whole Bunch of Questions  (Read 3844 times)
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STCrowley
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« on: August 02, 2004, 12:22:43 am »

Greetings, all.

Here's my backstory: I'm a 24 year old, perpetual student (but I owe nobody money) who's always described himself as "libertarian," thinking that just described a set of values, not a party affiliation.  (That could be because I'm in Bloomsburg, Columbia County, where y'all show no party activity on the website.)  So, it was only recently that I discovered there was an actual "Libertarian Party."  I immediately began my research.

I run a blog and have posted my first set of questions here:

http://www.stcrowley.com/000377.shtml

But, I'll try and summarize them:  I'm not sure where the party stands on defense?  Is that an issue for the party at a national level?  What about the state's National Guard (which is paying my way through a college that both LPP and I seem to think is a bit over-silly)?

If the citizen can't be compelled to separate with his life of his property for the benefit of others, can there be a draft?  Can taxes be levied to support a war?

We agree the state shouldn't be in the liquor business, but LPP wants to keep the state in the lottery?  Would that really generate enough revenue to operate a state, however minimal?  Especially considering there'll be so much competition from other venues, once gambling laws are repealed?

Don't get me wrong, I intend to join the party (I'm a college student with $34k outstanding in hospital debt, don't expect me to dig up $25 too quickly), but I have a lot of questions.  And I'll post more, soon.

-Toby
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beck40
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« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2004, 10:41:35 pm »

Crowley,

I saw your questions and thought I would respond as well as I can.

Libertarians believe in maintaining a strong national DEFENSE.  I stress defense as we believe the US military is currently being utilized in an offensive manner.  The US has  a military presense in over 100 nations all over the world.  We have been continually involved military campaigns since the early 1940's.  We are currently operating a "war against terrorism" in Iraq.  Each one of these points carries many discussion issues within themselves.  My point is that as Libertarians we would look to bring our troop home from endless European, Middle Eastern and Asian conflicts.  Conflicts that we should not be sending our young men and women to die in.  Instead, redeploy them in the US in a truly defensive manner, as they were intended to be.  Besides the greates benefit of saving the lives of US soldiers who would otherwise give thier lives fighting a "foriegn war".  Just imagine the cost savings that would result.   Don't forget war is costly business (200 billion in Iraq and counting).  Libertarians would rather see individuals keep the money they earned to use as they see fit.  Not to have it extracted from their pays (taxes) to help build a bridge, or blow up a building in some place they most likely never heard of.

Libertarians would not support a draft.  We believe that the people of this nation would volunteer to fight a war if our land and liberties were truly under attack.  Thus rendering a draft unnecessary.  We also believe in limiting the power of the state.  So, if the support of the people to fight a war is not there (ie. no one is enlisting) then the state can not compel them to do so.  

Libertarians agree that the state should get out of the liquor business.  The state should also get out of any other business that could and should be privatived.  To me that includes the lottery.  You mentioned that the LPP wants to keep the state in the lottery business.  I don't see that as consistent with the Libertarian philosophy of limited government.  Private casinos, racetracks and lotteries should fill the gambling market, not the state.  If this is a lose of income to the state so be it.  Again, we as libertarians, we want to limit the power (ie income) of the state.
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STCrowley
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« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2004, 11:13:22 pm »

Those are all very good points -- and points that I can take to friends in discussions when I try and explain the Libertarian position -- but for all of our limiting the power of the government (And believe me, I believe that's a good idea) can we honestly hope to support a modern military, even a volunteer, defensive, domestic military on donations and user fees?

That's the position put forth in the Platform of LPPA.  I think that'd be impossible and how does one define a "user fee" for national defense?  Anyone who's protected?  That's a tax.

I'd also like a list of crimes, aside from drug use and prostitution that the Libertarian Party considers "victimless crimes."  I only ask becuae many crimes, like speeding, that seem to have no victim, are certainly crimes because the idea is to avoid ever reaching the point where there is a victim.

Thank you so much for your help, though.  I'm just trying to fit everything I'm reading into a cohesive model that I can wrap my (often limited) brain around.

-Toby
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beck40
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« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2004, 10:59:43 pm »

Toby,

I disagree with your "limited mind" comment in your reply.  Based on the questions you are asking you seem rather intelligent.

As for your question regarding military expenditures I would say this.  If we were to eliminate (not reduce, restructure or reoganize) the vast expenditures of the nanny state we could reduce the tax burden on all Americans to a nominal amount.  I am speaking about such govenment programs as, social security (my personal most hated program) medicare, education, welfare (corporate and personal) unemployment insurance and the list goes on and on and on.  By eliminating all these things and more we could drastically reduce the size, power and expense of government.  Then the areas where government should play a role, national defense, court system and police could be given proper consideration.

Victemless crimes includes many things.  You mentioned drug use (of all types not just marijauna) and prostitution.  In addition I would include gambling, sodomy (between consenting adults) gun posession laws and so on.  Laws should be enacted to protect life and property.   Not to outlaw life choices and activities that some people find objectionable.  I'm not a lawyer so thas the best I can  do.

What is it that interests you most about the Libertarian party?
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STCrowley
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« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2004, 05:48:58 pm »

Is Sodomy still illegal in PA?  If it is, I agree it's definitely a victimless crime and a stupid law.  Does someone think we don't have better things to prosecute with our tax dollars?

I agree wholeheartedly on the issue of gun laws.  But, what I was wondering, is if the LPPA has a list somewhere of "victimless crimes" that we intend to abolish.  At what point does someone become a victim?  Assault, in which they are threatened but not harmed?  Do we wait until it becomes battery?  It's the same idea with speeding.  Who honestly will tell themselves that they've ever driven faster than they can handle?  Yet I'm sure that's a major cause of accidents.  Why wait for someone to get hurt?  Where would the party stand on some of the more commonly accepted "moral laws" of the day, such as polygamy or consensual pedophilia?  Are they also victimless?

I'm strongly drawn to the party and campaign for Badnarik in classes (Bloomsburg University has no noticable LP presence, unfortunately).  I even refer to myself as Libertarian in conversation, but I haven't spent my $25 to officially join the party yet.

Mostly, I'm drawn to the idea of limited government and personal responsibility.  I could send you links to essays I've written, in which I argue that the welfare state, like spoiling parents, creates spoiled, lazy children (or citizens) who are unable to take care of themselves.  Further, I think that interference of that sort -- because it can't be evenhanded -- destroys community instead of building it.  And I think that "community" should be the Libertarians' answer to big government.  A community that pulled together to help struggling (unemployed or ill) members would spend less, individually, than when the Federal Government takes their money to do it.  And because they'd know the people involved, the system would be almost immune to fraud.

I intend to write at length on that and, when I get $25 I can spare (I'm a college student, remember) I'm going to join the party.  But, if I had to say why I'm drawn to the party, it'd because of the potential that the party has to strengthen communities.  I don't believe you can have a strong government and a strong community.

Do I make any sense?
-Toby
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libstudent
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« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2004, 03:55:14 pm »

In order to create a strong military, we need to withdraw our troops in over 135 countries.  Also, by cuttting useless government programs, such as the War on Drugs (costing an annual fee of 19 billion dollars), we will have more funds available for defense.  Also, a very good website involving Iraq and the middle east is www.Antiwar.com
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Cicero
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« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2005, 09:10:31 pm »

Quote from: "beck40"


Libertarians believe in maintaining a strong national DEFENSE.  I stress defense as we believe the US military is currently being utilized in an offensive manner.  The US has  a military presense in over 100 nations all over the world.  We have been continually involved military campaigns since the early 1940's.  We are currently operating a "war against terrorism" in Iraq.  Each one of these points carries many discussion issues within themselves.  My point is that as Libertarians we would look to bring our troop home from endless European, Middle Eastern and Asian conflicts.  Conflicts that we should not be sending our young men and women to die in.  Instead, redeploy them in the US in a truly defensive manner, as they were intended to be.  Besides the greates benefit of saving the lives of US soldiers who would otherwise give thier lives fighting a "foriegn war".  Just imagine the cost savings that would result.   Don't forget war is costly business (200 billion in Iraq and counting).  Libertarians would rather see individuals keep the money they earned to use as they see fit.  Not to have it extracted from their pays (taxes) to help build a bridge, or blow up a building in some place they most likely never heard of.



Is your objection to war philosophic or utilitarian? If the latter, then I would would agree with you that most of the offensive wars that the U.S has fought in the recent past have been fruitless, unneccessary, and costly. However, this sort of policy in principle has often been both successful and required in the past, as it undoubtedly will again be in the future.

If the former is your cause for objection then, (1) I am shocked and (2) I must wholeheartedly disagree with you. In your qualm is morality/ethics, then perhaps you have not come to the realization that these things are meaningless in the world outside of yourself. You may hold yourself to a certain code of conduct based on your religion, or otherwise, but you have no concievable right to force those ideals on others or, by them , to manage a government. As a libertarian, you understand this already, I'm sure, considering the party views on issues like gay mairrage and abortion.

If your grounds are not moral, then what? I do not understand how you can agree in principle with the capitalistic practices of competion and yet negate the right of a nation to wage a war in self interest, a mere expression of free will, that one true inherant right of humanity.

In my mind, the zenith of human society would be an imperial republic, maintained by voluntary military service with the ideals of laizze faire libertarianism. I see nothing objectionable in this. Remember, a nation serves its people, rather than the contrary, but does not serve all of humanity. A government that does not consider the interests of its citizens above those of others, even if that means waging advantagous offensive war, is not doing its job.
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I may not like what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it"  -Voltaire
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