The Libertarian Party of Pennsylvania - Forum

VIA EMAIL FROM WWW.RESTORETHEREPUBLIC.COM EMAIL I RCVD:

In an act of defiance to international law and its allies to
the south, Canadian authorities in conjunction with their US
counterparts worked to silence the 4 year incarceration and
torture of an American citizen. 

One of our own, in Canada, was placed in solitary confinement,
entombed in a steel coffin, and sprayed with steam until his skin
blistered as retaliation for exposing a drug ring run by rogue
members of a Canadian police department.

Scott Loper's wife was intimidated by these same police officers
and forced into cutting off contact with him. He has not
seen his wife or son since and does not know of their fate.

Justice is far from overdue in this case and the "leaders" whom
we trust with our safety have done nothing to see that this story
receives the attention it deserves.

The cover up of the Scott Loper story goes as high as the White
House.

My brothers and sisters, one of us has been wounded and scarred
by those we trust, and when one bleeds we all bleed. This is the
American way.

It is time to put the full weight and force of Restore The
Republic into the door of the State Department and the halls of
congress to demand Congressional hearings on this matter.


This is what must be done:

1. Email and phone call:

Assistant Secretary of State for Consular Affairs; 
Michelle Bond Phone:  202.736.9090

Acting Director, Overseas Citizens Services and Crisis Management:
David Swartz: Phone: 202.647.6137

Chief, Western Hemisphere Division U.S. State Department; 
Ken Durkin: Phone- 202.647.5113 or 202.736.4996

House Majority Leader, Congressman Steny Hoyer;
Phone -  202.225.4131  or  (301) 843-1577

Speaker of The House of Representatives
Nancy Pelosi;  202.225.4965

When calling state, "All of America is watching how you handle
the Scott Loper case, when will you properly address it?"
 
======
A CUSTOM EMAIL IS READY TO GO FOR YOU AT http://ScottLoperStory.com/mail.html

To be honest with you I'm not too familiar with some of these issue but a quick Google search shows that these are very much connected to Truther issues, which is deeply disturbing.  I have an extremely low tolerance for Truthers.

and what exactly is a truther?

You know full well what a Truther is

i'm not trying to be a smartass, seriously, what is a truther?

if i were to guess, it would be a person who writes scarecrows...

Seriously man, if you're one of the Loose Change heads I won't have any tolerance for you.  I can't speak for the rest of the board here since I'm not truly in the LP at this point, but I have no patience for that kind of insanity. 

he that has no patience has nothing at all.....

have a nice day, you clearly are a superior being

I know there are folks who develop over the top conspiracy theories.

But, there are also those who are calling for a real investigation who don't believe we have had one thus far.  I would call these people truthers. 

Have you read the 911 commission report?  Do you find it comprehensive.  Do you feel the investigation of the matter has been exhausted?  Do you believe we know who planned the attacks, who carried out the attacks and who funded the attacks?  Are you satisfied that we know all there is to know about this matter and that those responsible for planning and implementing the attacks have been identified and brought to justice?

Surely you don't believe that attacking the Taliban and liberating Iraq somehow solves the problem.

I want to respect your point of view.  I just need to understand it.  I would sincerely be interested in hearing your view on the matter.  I'm sure many others, perhaps the majority in this nation share your outlook on the matter

David Jahn

The real asnwer to 911:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNwtJLnMoiw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNwtJLnMoiw)

Watch all the way to the end to get the real answer.

My own conspiracy is that The U.S knows exactly where Osama Bin Laden is. It also knows that if you kill him he is not that big a genius and might be replaced with someone better. The intelligence gathered from spying on him is worth more than his dead rotting corpse.

So do we doubt that Islamic militants hate us enough to try and kill us?

Do we doubt that Islamic militants can learn to fly airplanes?

Do we doubt that pre 911 it was pretty easy to hijack an air craft?

Do you doubt that the people said to be Islamic terrorists Hijacked the air planes ?

What flaws do you have with the Popular Mechanics explanation of the collapse of the towers?

Does anyone doubt that if you make this a major feature of the Party that no one will vote for you?

The 911 report was half CYA and half finger pointing, not very useful. No I don't think that we know all the answers, I just don't think George Bush blew up the World Trade Center or the Levies in New Orleans. Having studied pre WW II intelligence I don't think that FDR set up Pearl Harbor either. I believe that Neil Armstrong landed on the moon. Nobody has ever said that Iraq planned 911, only that they were supporting terrorists.

Peace and Love,
Samantha

Funny this came up.  At the 2008 LPPA Convention in March I did a 10 questions survey / poll on conspiracies and who believes what.   I was very interested to see what the body of the LP thought of some of the 9.11 theories and the federal reserve.  Just over the weekend I wrote an article on the findings, which were very interesting. 

I will post it shortly, it's on my other computer....sorry.   Stand by.  The results might shock you.

That was great klapton.  Thanks for sharing.

Let's take a walk down memory lane....

As for conspiracy theories, my eyes opened after the TWA 800 event.  I guess I believe the mechanical problem explanation -- planes usually do develop mechanical problems when a missile explodes nearby.

I think TWA 800 served to encourage terrorists and government.  Terrorists would be encouraged to keep trying.  Government would be encouraged to cover-up more.  It's my guess that 911 was the next encouraging step for both.

Mark

I'm not saying we need to embrace every conspiracy theory known to man, but how about a real investigation.  Shouldn't we know the names of the people who flew those planes?  Shouldn't we know who masterminded the attack?  Shouldn't we know who funded it all (hint...the last I heard the money trail leads to Pakistan)?  There are a lot of flaws in the Popular Mechanics evaluation.  All of the buildings looked like implosions.  Experts seem to disagree on the towers, but I'm not sure how anyone can explain away building 7. If they were imploded (and there is a lot of evidence to suggest that), it doesn't necessarily mean our government was involved.  

There is no doubt that the attacks on these towers involved a conspiracy.  The question is who organized the conspiracy, who was involved in its execution and who funded it.  That is a lot of who's.  I think the American people and those who lost loved ones in those towers are entitled to those answers.

A band of wives in New Jersey produced the video 9/11 Press for Truth (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3979568779414136481&hl=en)  I don't know if I'll be satisfied until they are.  

We usually investigate crimes.  I don't know why this one would be any different.  Asking for a full investigation doesn't diminish anyone's standing in my eyes.

David Jahn

www.zeitgeistmovie.com

thats a wide spread movie most people get aquinted with when being introduced to 'conspiracies'......

or go to www.copvcia.com: a good 'conspiracy' site with a lot of interesting subjects by Michael Ruppert, from cia cocaine smuggling to testimonials from associates of David Rockefellar giving testimony to having 'inside' knowledge to 9/11 and 7/7(great britain)

Come on, seriously.  We know al-Qaeda did this, and yes AQ has many links to Pakistan.  Weak responses to events such as the USS Cole, the African Embassy bombings, etc led to many of the events that occurred on 9/11.  The terrorist organization set out to murder US citizens as well as foreign nations and subsequently attack our our economics.   The symbolic nature of the towers was key for them as well.   Was the response by the government horrible?  Yes.  Much of that has to do with information walls being erected and having to cut through enormous amounts of beaurocratic (my spelling is probably off and I'm not sure how to use spell checker on this site) interworkings had to be weaved through.  The result was a sickeningly slow response.  We saw this in Katrina's wake as well.  Osama bin Laden financed the operation, KSM did most of the planning.  They are unrepentant and have continually advocated attacks in the future.  Their targeting of buildings is nothing knew.  See also the towers in Saudi Arabia, Africa, etc.  They had experience on these targets.  We never took the threats seriously.  Training of course was provided to many organizations to respond to hijackings, but as we all know, simulated experiments and real world events are much, much different.  The AQ, harsh left wing organizations that are sympathetic to their cause (yes, they are left wing as they seek a government that is authoritative and all controlling, stifling and crushing all freedoms for the people) and the like are in an ideological battle against human freedom in general.  There was no controlled explosion.  Our government, for as many flaws as it has, did not do this to us, radical terrorist authoritarian murders did this.  I don't doubt the government played damange control in some aspects in the 9/11 Commission, but the main facts are the facts.  I know some people have an extremely diffcult time trying to really grasp that true evil is out there and such a horrible act could be committed, but unfortunately that is the way the world is.  People who truly believe things like it was a missle hitting the Pentagon are simply disconnected from reality.  I know that sounds harsh and take it for what it is.  Are there some conspiracies out there?  Sure, I think.  However, this whole Loose Change idea is simply mind numbing insanity.

No offense, but this sounds like a lot of the right wing talk that dominates our airwaves.  They give a lot of rah rah Bush spiels and rattle off the usual "Muslims hate us because we are free and Christian" talks.  The more likely explanation is that they hate us because we have been meddling in their affairs and funding each side against the other in wars for decades.

It seems to me that we should strive to identify the individuals involved and then pursue the individuals.  The current strategy of attacking whole nations doesn't seem like a good plan.  We are probably making more enemies than friends.  Actually, I'm certain of that.

The most likely explanation for the collapse of these buildings is a controlled demolition, especially for building 7.  Why do people insist on jumping to the conclusion that if they were controlled demolitions, our government had to be involved.  Isn't it possible they were controlled demolitions and our government wasn't involved?

Quite honestly, I don't believe you can prove or defend your position any more than the conspiracy wacko's can prove or defend theirs.  My best guess is that the truth probably lies somewhere in between, and I think we should be demanding a thorough investigation that answers at least the obvious questions.  Once we complete that, we'll have a better idea of where we go from here to assure the safety of our nation.

David Jahn

David,

I'm not going to tell you we did not screw the pooch in the middle East, but all the bad press is not our fault. Our public relations started going down the toilet in that region after the 7 days war. Abdul Nasser claimed that U.S. Carrier based planes defeated Egypt and not the Israelis. It saved face for Nasser and since then everything that goes wrong in their petty dictatorships has been blamed on the U.S./CIA .

The Hijackers names were in the News papers, they were Saudis and Egyptians. Finding the names is pretty easy.

So if tower 7 was exploded and not collateral damage, why no discussion of bombs, incompetence or cover up? If it's a cover up why? The only answer the conspiracy folks come up with is that it was our government.

Yes I believe that 9/11 is a conspiracy by islamic militants, but usually in the tinfoil hat crowd conspiracy is a word reserved for the U.S. government or the business men that "really" run the country. As for making the Jersey girls happy, Libertarian ideals won't triumph.

So does this discussion advance the Libertarian cause or hurt it? In the short term if you are right or wrong you are made to look like a nut. A majority of people who vote do not want to think that the government blew up the towers, they may not know the exact details but Islamic militants are acceptable.

Although Libertarians stress individual freedoms, they support individuals cooperating together in business and industry. A strong point of the party is decrease in government intervention in the market. This would be considered pro business.

In the U.S., the government is of course the people, or so they say. When you blame the government for 9/11 or any number of other conspiracies, you are of course not blaming "the people". You are blaming George Bush and his friends in big business; beware of the military industrial complex. If big business is to blame people will vote for more regulation not less, no one will believe that George Bush is the lone gun man. If you are right David then nobody will vote Libertarian ever. People will vote for Big government of the people to protect them from the evil free market people.

Regards,
Samantha

You may not have seen this article (http://www.thedossier.ukonline.co.uk/Web%20Pages/LOS%20ANGELES%20TIMES_FBI%20Chief%20Raises%20New%20Doubts%20Over%20Hijackers'%20Identities.htm) and others like it.

According to that article "FBI Director Robert Mueller acknowledged Thursday that investigators may not know the true identities of some of the 19 suspected airplane hijackers from last week's suicide attacks."  It goes on to say "Officials refused to say how many hijackers may have used false identities, but officials of the Saudi Arabian government said Thursday that six of the men that the United States has named as hijackers killed in the attacks appear to be living in the Middle East."

I like to approach issues with an open mind.  I have read and watched several videos produced by the conspiracy crowds.  Much of what they say doesn't impress me, however some of their points are compelling such as molten metal in the ruble.  Jet fuel doesn't burn hot enough to produce molten metal.  Even experts who proffer logical explanations for the collapse of the towers only assert that the heat of the fuel would weaken the yield on the steel.

That is just one example.  There are more. 

This has nothing to do with Libertarianism.  I'm just bringing attention to matter that I believe there are legitimate questions that haven't been answered.  I believe Americans need to know what truly happened there and who was behind it.  I would think that would be paramount before we mobilize our armies.

I would be leery of anyone who swore our government was behind it all.  I haven't seen any evidence of that. However, I have studied this issue enough to know I wouldn't attack someone who thinks the matter warrants more investigation.   There is still much we don't understand about the events of that day.

Let me also say, I don't believe the commission hid anything.  I just don't believe they understood the questions or issues before them.

David Jahn

This is the article I mentioned I have in mind for a future LibPENN.  The findings of my poll were interesting.  Where do i stand?  No conspiracy, just incompetence.  I have seen all sides, all videos.  I am with Dr. Paul on this.


Enjoy.


Conspiracies?  What conspiracies?  by BDively

I like to know what is in people’s minds.  What makes them tick, how they analysis thought.  This is something I become obsessed with; especially when it comes to wanting to know what people think, especially Libertarians, whom I respect and revere.  This led me to wanting to know what Libertarians think about conspiracies.  Like others involved in politics, conspiracies are everywhere and some are very persuasive based on what we read everyday and see on the internet. 

I kept asking myself, do most Libertarians feel September 11th was an inside job, a missile hit the pentagon and feel a deal was made with our southern and northern borders to create the NAU (North American Union).  Or, is this a simple case of a loud, vocal minority?  I had to find out.

At the 2008 LPPA State Convention I decided to do an unscientific poll to find out.     

The poll was my first, so I took some time and thought it over.  I would scatter the questions so there was no pattern that the “subject” would see.  I would tell each “subject” that I would give them the results only if they turned in their answers.  (I gave each subject a “receipt” that would tell me they turned it in) 

Below are the results of my poll.  I had many people suggest I publish them because the results are very interesting.  At the end I conclude with some thoughts.

Question One:  9.11 was an inside job, likely the power brokers and government were involved.

   50 Subjects – 10% said True, 64% said False, 26% said not sure

Question Two:  On 9.11, the Pentagon was hit by a missile, not at plane.

   51 Subjects – 14% said True, 63% said False, 24% said not sure

Question Three:  Our government knew 9-11 was going to happen and let it happen.

   49 Subjects – 24% said True, 43% said False, 33% said not sure

Question Four:  There is a deal with Mexico, Canada and the US Gov’t to form the NAU.

   48 Subjects – 31% said True, 21% said False, 48% said not sure

Question Five:  The income tax is unconstitutional.

   49 Subjects – 57% said True, 24% said False, 18% said not sure

Question Six:  The 16th Amendment was not ratified by the 50 States.

   47 Subjects – 51% said True, 6% said False, 43% said not sure

Question Seven:  On 9.11, it was a missile and not a plane that fell in western PA.

   51 Subjects – 6% said True, 73% said False, 22% said not sure

Question Eight:  Talking about conspiracies does more harm than good for the LP.

   50 Subjects – 56% said True, 14% said False, 30% said not sure

Question Nine: How many years have you been in the Libertarian Party?   14.4 Years in LP

My un-licensed analysis is that few Libertarians believe most conspiracies are credible; though many are agnostic about them and leave the door open for the possibility.  Taking questions 1 & 2 alone, 10% and 14% of the 50 subjects is only 5 and 7 subjects respectfully, it’s a small number.  When I assessed the age of those that were in line of conspiracy believers, they were in their 20’s.  If just half were in their 20’s, 3 or 4 out of 50 is mere 6 to 7 percent.  These young people were Ron Paul Revolutionaries, too, which attracted the young.


When I moved to questions on the 16th Amendment (Question Six) and the income tax being unconstitutional (Question 5) the numbers go up to 51% and 57%.  Are these conspiracies or do Libertarians know something the general public does not?  Many of men and women have spent time in jail to challenge these questions in court.  Only 6% and 24% stated that there was no conspiracy here.  Amazing.   

To those that took my poll, thank you very much.  I can again sleep and move on to my next poll, possibly on the direction of the party.     

Subsequently, at the LP Convention in Denver (and I’ll admit here I was consuming adult beverages at the time) I came across another Libertarian that was doing a survey on the relationship between those that wear reading glasses and their intelligence.  I asked him why he was doing it, was he a scientist? He said no, I’m a lawyer but “I just had to find out.”   
 

.....there is no evidence that prooves that a plane hit the pentagon, no debri, the hotel cameras across the stree were confiscated and destroyed,but why?

.....why did norad take so long to respond to the plane hijackings, and why were there military fly missions going on at the same time of the attacks?

.....how come countries such as australia and israeli had enough time to take their citizens out of the world trade center weeks before the attack, who tipped them off? remind you of anything? pearl harbor?

.....serioiusly if you believe that al queda was solely responsible for the attacks you are more brainwashed than a 16year old girl watching mtv.....but hey you have your 'opinions' right? just like pentacostals roll around on the floor and speak jibberish because god tickles their private spots.....

....false flag operations are nothing new, governments have been using them for centuries!....

....money...greed....power.....the council on foreign relations, the trilateral commission drooling wanting war, the haliberton group dominating the defense contracts, and of course....you, believing every single piece of propaganda that the media can devise possible...........seriously...remember oklahoma city? what kind of laws were passed after that attack?






better yet what about the world trade center bombing in 1993...........

the FBI admitted to being responsible for the bombing............they ADMITTED TO IT! but since it didnt kill enough people, the anit-'terrorism' legislation was not passed, so that had to resort to oklahoma city.....


kennedy...was assassinated b/c he wanted to dispose of the cia, fbi, federal reserve, and central banking system.....

So if what you say is true, why would I vote Libertarian? Wouldn't I be taking the exercised power out of the hands of the puppets and giving it right to the string pullers? Would I not want to have powerful but good people in government to protect us from the evil people in our country?

I apologize David, I did not mean to attack you. I was lumping you in with people who I do find suspect.

My own questions do not arise beyond general distrust of government. I think many communities in the government have a cult of secrecy even about non sensitive materials, the concept of "need to know". I just am hesitant to jump to any conclusions based on what I do not know.

If not Islamic militants or our big bad shadow government then who is responsible? If it is the big bad shadow government then we are all wasting out time here in the Libertarian party. Political parties are for reformers, shadow governments require revolutionaries to deal with them.

Samantha

Several years ago then Allegheny County coroner Dr. Cyril Wecht was interviewed by Jim Quinn (then a conservative talk show host in Pittsburgh).  Wecht, no stranger to controvercial positions, said that (now this is from memory, so it's a little hazy) the only way to get to the bottom of these kinds of things is to somehow get people on trial in a court setting where they can be cross-examined.  I'm guessing that he was really saying that you won't find truth in front of a scripted congressional hearing or in a federal government report.

Thus, the best route to truth in these situations would be to make sure that local investigations and hearings happen.  Local jurisdiction must be respected so the feds don't co-opt the entire show.   

If one of these events happen in Pennsylvania, how can we make sure that state and even local investigations happen here?

Mark

One airplane did go down in western PA, How was it handled?

The reality is that we only know what the government feeds us through their media parrots.  I'm sure there is an Al Qaeda group and suspect they are responsible for 9/11, but I can't know that based on my small view of the world.  I have to rely on the government and the media for such information.  The same government that lied to us about the Gulf of Tomkin, genocides in Kosovo and weapons of mass destruction in Iraq to name a few.  The media eagerly parroted all of that as fact.  If you ask me, the current administration should be facing criminal charges for its long list of lies and deceit.

Do you really believe weak responses to the USS Cole, the African Embassy bombings, etc. are what motivates these people to attack us?  What do you think motivated them to target the USS Cole, the African Embassy, etc. in the first place?  Why was the USS Cole there and why are we in Africa?  Don't you think those bombings may have had some relationship to our in your face military presence all over the world?  Are you proposing more of that as a solution to the problem? 

Our intelligence agencies sure don't seem to possess much intelligence. They couldn't investigate a group of middle easterners who weren't interested in landing lessons.  They couldn't tell if Iraq has WMD or not.  Of the 400 plus suspected terrorists they harassed after 9/11, nearly everyone of them has been released.  Do they get anything right?


This is a lot of the stuff I hear from Limbaugh and Hannity.  I hope they aren't your authoritative source.

I don't follow your definition of authoritarian terrorist groups as being leftist.  It seems to me that they are either leftist or authoritarians.

And, no one on this forum has accused the government of masterminding or executing 9/11.  Please show me where they have if I'm wrong.

I have to wonder what makes you so certain the terrorists behind 9/11 couldn't have managed a controlled demolition?

Lastly, I have to ask if you would be opposed to a full investigation into the events of 9/11?  Or, do you think we have had one?  How can we be sure this hasn't been a rush to judgement?

David Jahn

If you simply want to know what brought 9/11 about in a chronological order, I think I have some insight on that. This is information I have pieced together from some briefings I have had from people that lived in that region and some personal experience of working in Afghanistan for 4 1/2 months.

In the Soviet/Afghan conflict the US supported the Afghan freedom fighters. At least long enough to give them the stinger missiles used to shoot down our helicopters. (note that the US pulled out early in the conflict)

During this war, the Afghani's sent their children to the mountains of Pakistan to escape the killing. Along the Pak border were schools built to teach these children. I believe they were called Pashtu schools. The schools were funded by Saudi Arabia. They taught an extreme version of islam to these children. These children would return to Afghanistan after the war to reunite the country and get rid of the warlords. They called themselves the Taliban.

At first, the US government was supportive of the Taliban. They, along with the British, sent funding and other "resources" to the Taliban to help them bring order to the chaos in that region. Unfortunately for American politics the Taliban took this support to a city in Afghanistan and wiped out most of the population for religious differences. When this happened the US decided to cut support. I believe at this time the British did as well. The only people that still supported the Taliban with money was Saudi Arabia.

At the start of the 90's another dictator that we installed in the middle east began to act up. Saddam Hussein was making movements that showed he was ready to invade his neighbors sovereign land. Saudi Arabia became concerned about this and pleaded for us to protect them. I am not certain that they were ever truly in danger, but Hussein was not necessarily predictable. The US put a condition on their aiding of the Saudi's, they had to stop sending the Taliban money.

This upset the Saudi's. They went to the Taliban and advised their leaders that the US was forcing them to quit supporting the Taliban. The Taliban had already seen all their funding around the world dry up. Now their brothers were abandoning them because the US said no more. As far as they were concerned the only choice they had to get their funding back was to get the US, and other western allies, to stop interfering with the flow of the money. How do you fight a war against the strongest nation in the world, when you are one of the weakest? I think we have the examples of that.

I am certainly not condoning what they did. I understand why they did it, but I still find their actions reprehensable. It should be recognized that the people who dislike us are not in the majority. The problem is that the way US policy is we disarm the majority who are law abiding citizens of a nation and that only leaves the terrorists and criminals with weapons. The good people cannot even defend their own homes.

Samantha,

One airplane did go down in western PA, How was it handled?

There were no PA hearings, but I'm told some 9-11 truthers have been looking for some sort of legislative sponsor to push for some sort of investigation.  I'm not sure what the focus of the investigation would be.

I don't care what you think of the 9-11 truther position, but weren't there hearings when those coal miners were trapped and got out in some PA mine?  (Can someone confirm that?)  If so, you would think that if an event with no deaths got a hearing, then a plane crash in PA killing all on board would get a hearing.  It's just that the "united States" has become the "United states."  Like FEMA taking control of all disaster situations or the Dept. of Education taking over education -- the states have too willingly handed over local stuff to the feds.

Mark

Curiosity and questions are a good thing, but when they congeal into conspiracy theories is when I worry. Dealing with people on message boards is amazing. I think Libertarians tend to be overly susceptible to conspiracy theories. There are a seeming large number of libertarian minded people who think Bob Barr is a Republican plot to end the Libertarian Party forever. Being new to the Party, I'm trying to grasp this tendency to build everything into a conspiracy?

Peace and Love,
Samantha

C'mon, I keep hearing about how Obama is a Muslim terrorist trying to take over the American Government.   ::)

My position is not from Hannity and Limbaugh, though I will admit I like some of the things they have to say.   My position is from history.  We had seen terrorist attacks overseas directed at our embassies, vessels, etc.  I can appreciate your position that we have embassies with many nations, but these acts have become increasing brazen and more sinister in nature.  Honestly, I know our embassy in Iraq is extremely bloated and should not remain so as we can reach and equitable solution at the Iraqis direction after we make sure they their security forces can protect their own citizens.  A large part of the problem with the Taliban in particular is that after the Soviet invasion and after the proxy war had been over, the US and other turned their backs on the nation, ignoring the Afghan people and letting them be overrun by thugs.  I do tend to link left-wing and authoritarian into the same group as the main tenet of their position is consolidating power into the government.  I do not think the government tells the truth about evertyhing, I readily admit that, and I think every citizen in this nation understands that are many things the government does not disclose to its citizens.  However, al Qaeda and their affiliates (like Abu Saayaf) have openly targeted free societies with their ideology.  The difference between the Soviet threat and the radical Islamic threat is that the terrorist organizations simply do not operate under a single flag, nor do they wear uniforms and that is a huge and  problematic difference.  When al Qaeda had affiliates being caputred for attempting to organize an attack against the Irish, with their historic and storied non-interventionist policies, I think that shows something about their nature.  I do not believe their was a controlled explosion, nor do I believe that if there was a posibility that al Qaeda would have done that and much, much more.  I think they had taken lessons from the Soviet experience that economic warfare is what ulitmately destroyed the Soviets (and subsequently gave the people of Eastern Europe new found freedoms) and that is why they had targed the WTC on two occasions, they sought those highly simbolic symbols of American economic strength and Pentagon and White House for the military and leadership of our nation.  They also serve as great symobols of freedom.  Another thing that makes al Qaeda and extremism so much different is the religious ties that are involved.  These are noted pretty well, so I won't elaborate.  A great majority of the "truther" movement believes the government is who was behind 9/11 and completely turns a blind eye to just how dangerous an enemy we are fighting and that is tremendously dangerous and irresponsible.  I have never once heard or seen a truther go out and blast the terrorists behind the acts, only the government.   Of course the government is ineffecient, but recognizing security threats is essential.

Very few, I doubt there is one on this board.  Maybe 1 in 50.

The problem bd is that Barr needs more than 124 votes six of them coming from David. If people who ideologically agree with Barr can not get out and enthusiastically support him, who will. If you go back and read the discussions on the LPPa forum just after the convention you will find a few disappointed people. 124 is a pretty small sampling and I would say represents the more election minded folks.

Samantha

It doesn't make sense to me why you all wouldn't fully support Bob Barr.  I think there was a saying that related to Ronald Reagan along the lines of you don't have to agree 100% of the time but rather 80% of the time.  I believe it to be completely impossible to agree with anyone 100% of the time on every issue, I think our inter-relations with each other, friends, family, etc. hold that to be true. 

The answer to any question is always grey.  There are those that see absolute white and those that see absolute black, but the rational mind sees grey.

This topic is why we need to put all of our cash over the next 6 years into a marketing campaign for the party. Then and only then when the rest of America is educated (those who choose to be, I should add). Will we start landing the body blows to the other parties.
We've made it way to easy for the other parties to dismiss us, or paint us as anarchist conspiracy whackos. Unfortunately the people who call the talk shows are usually lunatical radicals who end up making us look really really bad. Did I say really? I mean really really really bad.

Why not vote for Bob I can give you ten outstanding reasons why not. I can also give you ten outstanding reasons why you should as well.

Finally for Mr. Loper I would feel a bit of pity for ol' Scotty Boombotty but I know the story is a bunch of moose poo. I lived in Canada five years. My wife is Canadian. I know Canada and if the slightest hint of torture hit anywhere near the Canadian public you would have nation wide pandemonium and the most unbelieveable whinefests in the parliment. The nation would come to a stand still with government investigations. Not to mention were talking Canadians and torture. That's like catching Karen Carpenter at the all you can eat buffet (that was probably in poor taste, then again "taste" probably not in the best tas....well you know what I mean). And the whole steam story, come on! Everone knows it leaves too many marks. If you want to do it right get some copper wire....well you know what I mean.

Come on peeps lets talk about making Liberty sexy again, rather than all this mucky muck.

Agree, we need to get the 30% to the True category from my poll.

Question Eight:  Talking about conspiracies does more harm than good for the LP.

   50 Subjects – 56% said True, 14% said False, 30% said not sure

People tend to fall into one of the following categories.

1. Those who believe 9/11 was an inside job perpetrated by the U.S. Government.  This group demands further investigation.

2. Those who see 9/11 as a defining moment in our history who believe there are many unanswered questions about the events of that day. They would like to see a more exhaustive and comprehensive investigation.

3. Those who are content with whatever they've read in news reports and/or the 9/11 commission report. Many in this group are equally content with the notion of dropping bombs in the middle east or anywhere else.

4.  Those who slept through 9/11 and never read the news.


As I stated previously, I tend to fall into the second group.  Unfortunately, time is running out for conducting such an investigation and much of the evidence (not all) of what happened that day is already gone.  I'll never understand why our government and the American people didn't demand a full investigation.  Who were those terrorists?  Who funded them?  When was money wired to them and from what accounts?  Why didn't the FBI act on information it had?  Who was responsible for the decisions made in our intelligence communities?  The list goes on.

I will never understand why our government and my fellow citizens didn't demand a full investigation of this matter. Frankly, anyone that isn't in group two concerns me.

Having said all of that, this is not a fight our party should take up.  The bulk of our countrymen seem to fall into groups three and four above.  They are content. 

If anything, the reaction to 9/11 shows us how complacent many of our citizens have become and how important it is for us to convey respect for the concepts of freedom.  We need to focus on restoring the yearning for liberty that seems to have escaped our fellow citizens. 

David Jahn

I would say I fall into group 2. However, I don't believe the government is capable of handling the investigation. Not that they couldn't find all the answers mind you. I just don't think that they would share them if they did. Anything that could embarass the administration or some department thereof would be subdued. And we have all seen what is important to Congress. Lets interview the latest professional athlete about something that is completely irrelevant to the taxpayers who are paying for the investigation.

I think I have fallen into group 5 over the past 7 years.

It is what it is. It's not a question of why or how or even who for that matter, It's where are we at now.

The Northern Europeans had a great system for the passage of time and I think if we looked at it this way we could put a lot of things to bed. They didn't believe in past present or future. TIme was just what is and what is becoming.

So what are we becoming? What am I going to help us become? What little insignifigant choice that I make today without a second thought where is it going to lead me or the guy behind me when he realizes I bought the last roll of toilet paper on a holiday weekend.

I suppose David that I'm a 2.5 I believe that a thorough investigation was done and that the government just decided that we did not need to know the answers.

Pretty much unless I ever get elected President I'm not going to know any of the answers, Like what is really going on in area 51? Since I'm not going to get elected I don't loose sleep over questions that I will never get a true answer to.

Maybe there is a fifth category:

5.  Government is so big and has so many rules, procedures and laws that it’s becoming difficult to do anything without being in conflict with some rule, procedure or law. It’s not surprising to see two rules or laws in conflict with each other.  One unintended consequence is that any such conflict, even innocent ones, carries with it the appearance of a sinister intent.  Another unintended consequence is that any such conflict, especially sinister ones, is much easier to hide in a big government setting.

Big government is a natural environment for generating questionable activities both unintentional and intentional, both brilliant and stupid, both good and evil.  No wonder there is such a rise in conspiracy theories. 

So what the answer?  I think the LP has had the answer all along.  At the risk of sounding a little self-serving, go here:  Go here: 
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07070/768347-110.stm 
and page down to read “Downsize it all.”   

Smaller government means fewer conspiracies -- both real and imagined.

Mark

PS to Dave – This didn’t post again. I got thrown out.  I did keep a copy in another application to post again.

I think it is a conspiracy.